Amazon's own ebook format

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I must, with the greatest possible respect, beg to differ. If the person you "share" it with would otherwise have bought the book themselves, the author has lost a sale.

Just to play Devil's Advocate: consider the person you "share" it with who would've otherwise never bought the book themselves. If they didn't like it, little was gained/lost. But if they did like it, the author just might have sold another copy of every single one of their books--past and future.

I'm not saying casual friend-to-friend sharing of an ebook is "right," by any means (or that it can never be harmful). But rather that I believe there are much worse things that could happen to an author than a fan attempting to instill their love of your (the author's) work in one of their reading (or even non-reading) friends.

There's no question the new medium has changed the rules--and very suddenly at that. Perhaps a little too suddenly for a society of readers whose favorite authors were likely brought to their attention in a similar (similar in spirit, if not practice/execution) way. Pretty hard to change that sort of cultural mentality overnight. *shrugs*

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by sirmaru

Those examples could be copied by Amazon which could now start an eBook rental service where one could pay a monthly or annual fee and then rent all their eBooks for reading at one or two per month. The rented files could have expiration dates for self destruction, thus, eliminating all chances of being pirated.

There are at least three such services already — Scribd, Oyster and Entitle.

Originally Posted by sirmaru

I have a strong hunch that pirate eBook sites are the sources for many who collect thousands of eBooks without reading most of them. Then Calibre would be necessary to insert the missing metadata.

You also claim that DRM-removal leads to the pirating of books. If that was so, then the available pirate books for download would already contain all the metadata.

Originally Posted by sirmaru

Thus, today with millions of eBooks being downloaded from pirate sites REQUIRES Calibre to insert metadata and Apprentice Alf to strip DRM in the same way that Media Monkey was once required for music. Today those downloading music from pirate sites still need Media Monkey since they may be missing most of the metadata.

No-one downloading pirated material needs Alf's tools, as they only work for the people who actually bought the books. And as stated before, IF pirated ebooks were from commercial ebooks with the DRM removed, they would still contain all their metadata.

Originally Posted by sirmaru

Thus, I don't have the same needs as other who get their songs and eBooks without any metadata and with possible DRM still loaded.

Pirated ebooks with DRM still on them are useless to the the people downloading them. No-one needs calibre to add metadata to pirated ebooks, because pirated ebooks would still have all their metadata present.

Originally Posted by sirmaru

By the way, no one should get angry about all these issues.

I only get exasperated that you get so many things wrong in a single post.

People use calibre for a wide variety of reasons. I use it to keep track of my ebooks, and fix up the metadata (since publishers don't always get this right!), and do conversions between formats. And, thanks to Alf, to strip the pesky DRM.

This all has nothing to do with piracy of ebooks, or needing to add metatdata to pirated ebooks.

[sirmaru]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

You also claim that DRM-removal leads to the pirating of books. If that was so, then the available pirate books for download would already contain all the metadata.

No-one downloading pirated material needs Alf's tools, as they only work for the people who actually bought the books. And as stated before, IF pirated ebooks were from commercial ebooks with the DRM removed, they would still contain all their metadata.

Pirated ebooks with DRM still on them are useless to the the people downloading them. No-one needs calibre to add metadata to pirated ebooks, because pirated ebooks would still have all their metadata present.

This all has nothing to do with piracy of ebooks, or needing to add metatdata to pirated ebooks.

By definition pirate eBook sites are NOT standard. Metadata may or may not be complete on uploads and DRM may or may not have been included on uploads.

Thus, anyone collecting thousands of eBooks from pirate site downloads has a strong need to bring all those eBooks into Calibre to organize and complete the metadata on them. They also need Alf since many of the downloaded eBooks may still have DRM on them.

If one is going to upload to pirate sites, again Calibre and Alf are necessities for those sites which require metadata to be complete and Alf to remove the DRM.

Music pirate sites used to REQUIRE that one upload an equivalent number of songs as the number they want to download. It is probable that many eBook pirate sites now have the same requirement.

Those folks with 10,000 or more eBooks have probably acquired most from pirate sites or other free sites. With the average price of an eBook now at $ 10.00, I doubt if anyone actually spent $ 100,000 on eBooks for future reading.

The only way I would need Calibre and Alf would be if it looked like Amazon was going out of business and being replaced by yet another standard with a new eBook distributor. I would then need to convert the current eBooks I was reading to the new eReaders and new eBook standards.

When I moved from Sony eReaders to Amazon eReaders, I kept the old Sony eReaders to first finish the old eBooks at the same time as I was buying new eBooks from Amazon.

As long as Amazon stays strong, I don't need to waste my time with Calibre or Alf. I have long ago accepted the fact that my old Adobe and Sony eBook files are gone forever. Since I never re-read an old eBook, I do not need access to them. The only risk is that I may have forgotten lots of books I have read in the past and then accidently buy them again from Amazon and re-read them.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by sirmaru

Thus, anyone collecting thousands of eBooks from pirate site downloads has a strong need to bring all those eBooks into Calibre to organize and complete the metadata on them. They also need Alf since many of the downloaded eBooks may still have DRM on them.

If you knew anything at all about "Alf" (which you plainly do not), you would know that it can ONLY be used to remove DRM from books that you have bought yourself. It cannot be used to remove DRM from anyone else's books.

For God's sake take the trouble to learn something about what you're posting about before spouting this utter garbage.

[hardcastle]

This post is dedicated to refuting sirmaru, whose incorrect statements and logical fallacies are polluting the thread.

Originally Posted by sirmaru

The serial number precludes file sharing sites from distributing that music now. Music without the license number could easily be detected as illegal.

As easy as it is to detect illegal serial number metadata, it is equally as easy to remove it, and the serial numbers are rarely enforced. Piracy of Amazon MP3's are widespread, as are eBooks of every format and vender.

They all play the MP3 standard. iTunes used to be heavily protected and even that product now matches the MP3 standard.

iTunes has never not supported MP3. However, iTunes does not sell music in MP3 format; it sells music in a format called AAC, which is slightly less but roughly widespread as MP3 in support.

Originally Posted by sirmaru

The real question is, if one buys a print book, does one have the right to make 2 backup copies on the new high speed, low cost laser printers we now have available? [...]

The legal right to read the print book is only on the specific copy we purchased.

Because we have the power to make copies of print books, should we actually do it?

The analogy falls apart because the further activity of a print book does not hinge on a vendor's will that a DRM book would require. When I buy a paper book, the only one responsible for it's future use is me, whereas an eBook requires trust in Amazon, Barnes, or Kobo. I have no reason to trust them.

It should be noted that Calibre, itself, has decided NOT to produce their own DRM removal tools but will accept the Alf plugin. Why did they make that choice?

DRM-removal tools of any fashion are illegal in the United States and other countries, and would thus hamper the distribution of Calibre.

So far I am choosing not to do this but others must make their own choice. If stripping of DRM led to sharing of those eBooks, then the economic model for writing and publishing books would collapse. Remember, once DRM is stripped, the next act without any real consequences would be sharing with friends and family.

Slippery slope fallacy.

Might I note that eBook piracy was alive and well long before Amazon came on to the scene, and has continued to prosper. So assuming that piracy would result in the downfall of the eBook industry is pure insanity - there has never been an eBook market without it.

This problem now exists in eBooks, songs and videos. Technology has swept past the rights of originators of those products.

Or perhaps it is the other way around? DRM and other locked-down tools have stripped consumers of their product ownership rights and forcing them to place their trust in remote digital vendors.

Originally Posted by sirmaru

Most software is now written in Source code and then compiled to Object code which happens to be Machine code. I believe C++ is one language used a lot today. eBooks, now sold in accessible Source code, could easily be converted to Object code (Machine code) before sale.

I find it hilarious that you seem to think you know how to make the perfect DRM. Seriously, the hubris in such a claim is staggering.

The problem with your suggestion is the problem all DRM faces: the book still needs to be converted back into a human readable format at the time of consumption. You can encrypt the eBook as much as you want, but the end user still has to be allowed to unlock it, and see text. If this is possible, then it is logically possible to break the DRM.

Why it has not yet happened is because no one up until now has had a decisive edge in eBook sales and had to conform to common industry standards (ePub and its derivatives). Amazon now may be moving into a decisive edge and may start conversion of their eBook inventory.

Some software like encryption modules and cookies are written directly in machine code. Thus, it would be quite easy to insert a cookie to detect alteration of an eBook and then either self destruct the file or send a message to the seller via the internet. Even if the internet was disconnected, a delayed message could be created and then sent once the internet was activated. Updates of all our software happens like that now taking place when the computer is inactive and the internet is connected.

This is utter nonsense for a number of reasons.

For one, consumers would revolt and look elsewhere. For proof of this, I direct you to Microsoft's Xbox One, a recent video game console with extremely locked-down DRM in a similar fashion you described. Aside from a small apologist press, the entire gaming community was up in arms and pre-orders for the console were abysmal. Microsoft later retracted their policies.

For two, if an eBook can be altered, so can this "cookie" you described (often called a "hash" in encryption). And if an eBook can be altered, the notification or self destruction code can be removed. These are fundamental concepts of computer security.

For three, a device that automatically connects to the internet when the user has explicitly turned it off would fail technological device standards.

For four, machine code can still be reverse-engineered. Not easily, but with the nature of DRM, it only takes one person to break it and tell everyone else how he/she did it.

Frankly, I believe only a small minority of eBook purchasers from Amazon even know about Calibre and Apprentice Alf. Most probably just buy the eBook to read it just as most just buy songs to listen and don't bother with metadata alterations or any other technical maneuvers.

Appeal to Popularity fallacy.

Might I note that just because a product fits the vast majority of use cases doesn't mean that product will be good for mine. I don't buy products based off of what other people use things for, I use them for what I want to do. No one else matters.

Originally Posted by sirmaru

Some advantages of machine coded eBooks is that they occupy much less space, they can be transferred faster over the internet, they can be indexed at speeds which will dwarf present slow indexing and they will draw much less power from batteries.

Machine code would not be much smaller than an eBook, seeing as eBooks are already losslessly compressed. (Lossless compression means no data is lost in compression, which is an necessity for text.) The more complex an encryption algorithm or conversion method is, the longer indexing takes. Machine code would not be an improvement.

I want to highlight that these are all basic computer science concepts.

Originally Posted by sirmaru

The problem is that they are NOT YOUR eBooks. You only buy a license to READ that eBook. You have not purchased a license to strip DRM, change covers, change metadata or change print on the pages.

Consumers continue to be able to do all that because the vendor's know that if they limit their users too much, they start to lose fragments of their userbase. Further DRM schemes would just beg for other competitors to highlight their lack of DRM. You're basically handing your competition some market share, for what, DRM that people can subvert by buying somewhere else?

Originally Posted by sirmaru

They well may be part of a new eBook business model of renting eBooks with a monthly fee rather than buying them. That is the present model of the video market which has put an end to large chains like Blockbusters which used to sell the videos into now paying a monthly fee to Netflix and / or Amazon to stream the videos.

This is not a terrible idea, and I expect to see Amazon or some other eBook vendor implement it eventually. But I do not expect a heightened DRM scheme to go along with it.

Since most eBooks on the planet are sold by Amazon, then Amazon IS THE standard.

Citation needed. Furthermore, a simple market majority is not enough to assume that one format is the standard above all other formats.

eBooks are now in the same stage of development. Copying print books was long ago defeated by reams of court decisions. At a minimum I regard it as unethical to strip and copy eBooks. However, I doubt any publishers are going to pursue this problem since it is not cost effective.

As you have made it abundantly clear, this is because you cannot conceive of a use case for such a task, despite being shown over and over and over again on this very forum many, many reasons why someone would want to do so. Your willful ignorance is insulting.

(I have been a lurker on MobileRead forums for about two years.)

There is definitely something wrong with folks stripping copy protection on their own and not paying anything to the copyright holders. That used to happen with music until Amazon dropped the price on songs to near $ 1.00 each and made the labor of stripping copy protection too expensive.

Amazon did not drop the price of music files to $1, Apple did. Amazon removed DRM entirely, thus negating the need to use copy protection stripping tools. Apple soon followed.

Now with Amazon dropping prices on eBooks to less than $ 10.00 the time investment is getting burdensome if one places a value on their time. I believe that personal time valuation indicates wasting time on DRM stripping is simply not of value anymore.

It's not value to you because you trust Amazon to a point of delusion I have never seen in anyone. If I were a mod on this forum I would simply make your signature a description of the Appeal to Authority fallacy.

For one, stripping DRM takes maybe ten seconds per book. With minor configuration, the process can be entirely automatic when connecting an eReader to a computer. You overestimate the time needed to strip DRM by a great degree.

For two, cheapness of product does not preclude the need for backups to be removed. Just because it cost me $2 doesn't mean I won't want to back it up in case I want to switch eReader vendors or in case Amazon does something incredibly stupid.

Eventually, Amazon started selling them for near $ 1.00 per song without any protection. Since it took usually 15 to 30 minutes to break protection, the vast majority stopped since it was not worth their time to break if a $ 1.00 UNPROTECTED song was now available.

A perfect example of how ridiculous your estimations are. It took far less than 15 to 30 minutes to break music DRM.

Videos as well used to be stripped by huge numbers of people. With most videos now available for small monthly fees from Netflix and a small annual fee from Amazon stripping DRM on videos now is totally OBSOLETE.

This may astonish and frighten you, but some people enjoy owning a piece of media, and they would want constant unfettered access to it. This is why DVD's and Blu-Rays are still a heavy piece of the video market, and why video piracy still exists. A subscription model simply doesn't meet every user's needs.

By definition pirate eBook sites are NOT standard. Metadata may or may not be complete on uploads and DRM may or may not have been included on uploads.

It's trivial to pirate only books that were ripped straight from Amazon, thus the metadata is all intact. Assuming, of course, that Amazon's metadata IS correct (which it may well not be - mistakes can be made)

Music pirate sites used to REQUIRE that one upload an equivalent number of songs as the number they want to download. It is probable that many eBook pirate sites now have the same requirement.

See below.

Thus, today with millions of eBooks being downloaded from pirate sites REQUIRES Calibre to insert metadata and Apprentice Alf to strip DRM in the same way that Media Monkey was once required for music. Today those downloading music from pirate sites still need Media Monkey since they may be missing most of the metadata.

Astoundingly incorrect. The exact opposite of reality. A simple navigation of many popular pirate sites reveal the inaccuracy of these statements.

I would suggest that anyone stop discussing matters including pirate sites, when it is obvious they have not researched them in any recent time or space.

Thus, anyone collecting thousands of eBooks from pirate site downloads has a strong need to bring all those eBooks into Calibre to organize and complete the metadata on them. They also need Alf since many of the downloaded eBooks may still have DRM on them.

DRM stripping tools for most eBooks can only work on one account at time.

These days I buy all my songs and eBooks from Amazon and all are fully loaded with the proper metadata. Thus, I don't have the same needs as others who get their songs and eBooks without any metadata and with possible DRM still loaded.

Your growing insinuation that anyone who needs to alter metadata is a pirate is insulting.

Amazon's metadata may not be correct. It happens. Amazon isn't perfect. They can't check the metadata on every book that enters their store. Calibre also offers additional classification options that Amazon doesn't add automatically.

By the way, no one should get angry about all these issues.

Do not chalk up the attacks against your arguments as anger. Chalk it up to the simple fact that your supporting evidence is largely imaginary.

Calibre and Apprentice Alf are totally IRRELEVANT to MY eBook reading hobby.

Your posts are totally IRRELEVANT to reality. Check facts and cite your posts next time.

[sirmaru]

Originally Posted by HarryT

If you knew anything at all about "Alf" (which you plainly do not), you would know that it can ONLY be used to remove DRM from books that you have bought yourself. It cannot be used to remove DRM from anyone else's books.

How does Alf detect whether an eBook file on your PC was purchased by you, shared from a friend or downloaded from a pirate site?

Plus, if one did buy an eBook and then stripped the DRM with Alf and uploaded it to a pirate site, would the next downloader be blocked from reading that eBook?

[HarryT]

Because it uses the decryption keys from your own PC to remove the DRM. It can't remove DRM from any book that you couldn't read. Ie, it can only remove DRM from books that you can read with DRM. It is not a piracy tool.

[hardcastle]

Originally Posted by sirmaru

How does Alf detect whether an eBook file on your PC was purchased by you, shared from a friend or downloaded from a pirate site?

Plus, if one did buy an eBook and then stripped the DRM with Alf and uploaded it to a pirate site, would the next downloader be blocked from reading that eBook?

Perhaps you should try the tool before assuming you understand its function.

These are trivial questions, answered via research as opposed to asking on this forum.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by sirmaru

How does Alf detect whether an eBook file on your PC was purchased by you, shared from a friend or downloaded from a pirate site?

Plus, if one did buy an eBook and then stripped the DRM with Alf and uploaded it to a pirate site, would the next downloader be blocked from reading that eBook?

Given the level of ignorance shown in this post, perhaps you should spend more time reading and less time writing?

1. Alf's tools can only remove the DRM from an ebook if the decryption key is known. Only the original owner (or their computer) knows the encryption key.

2. Obviously not.

[sirmaru]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

Given the level of ignorance shown in this post, perhaps you should spend more time reading and less time writing?

1. Alf's tools can only remove the DRM from an ebook if the decryption key is known. Only the original owner (or their computer) knows the encryption key.

2. Obviously not.

Thanks for that information. Prior to 12 months ago I never knew anything at all about Calibre or Alf. I have learned a lot from these answers.

Up above someone posted that Apple songs were in the AAC format, and not MP3. All my devices only play MP3 songs including streaming to my Grace Radios. Thus, I could never use Apple iTune songs at all. I never knew that before either. Thank goodness Amazon is using the MP3 standard.

The beauty of this Forum is that we can all learn from each other.

I don't use Calibre or Alf at the present time but who knows what I will need to use in the future.

[hardcastle]

Originally Posted by sirmaru

Up above someone posted that Apple songs were in the AAC format, and not MP3. All my devices only play MP3 songs including streaming to my Grace Radios. Thus, I could never use Apple iTune songs at all. I never knew that before either. Thank goodness Amazon is using the MP3 standard.

If that's all you have to say to me, then I've wasted my time. I hope I've entertained someone else, then.

Originally Posted by sirmaru

The beauty of this Forum is that we can all learn from each other.

This entire thread has been people informing you of the constant errors in your assumptions, and you seem uninterested in correcting them and continue to spout more falsities and fallacies. Spare us the heartfelt conclusion when you're not willing to actually act on your produced pleasantries.

[pidgeon92]

Originally Posted by sirmaru

All my devices only play MP3 songs including streaming to my Grace Radios. Thus, I could never use Apple iTune songs at all.

iTunes can convert AAC to MP3, as can a myriad of other applications. Excerpted from an about.com page:

1. To begin, you have to make sure iTunes is set to create MP3 files (its encoding functions allow you to create many kinds of files, including AAC, MP3, and Apple Lossless). To do this, you'll need to open the Preferences window. On Windows do this by going to Edit -> Preferences. On a Mac go to iTunes -> Preferences.

2. Next, find the song or songs you're converting from AAC to MP3 in iTunes. You can select songs one at a time, in a group by using Control-A on Windows and Command-A on a Mac, or in a group of non-contiguous files by holding down Control (on Windows) or Command (on Mac) while you click each file.

3. When you've selected all the files you want to convert from AAC to MP3, you have two choices for how to begin the conversion:

Click on the File menu in iTunes, then Create New Version, and select "Create MP3 Version", OR
Right click on the selected files and choose "Create MP3 Version" from the pop-up menu.
When you click on one of those options, the conversion will begin. How long it takes will depend on how many songs you're converting and the conversion settings.

4. When the conversion from AAC to MP3 is complete, you'll have two copies of each converted file, one in AAC, the other in MP3. You may be happy to have both copies. If not, though, and you want to delete one, you'll need to know which is which. In that case, select the file you're curious about and hit Control-I on Windows or Command-I on a Mac. This will pop up the song's information window. The Kind field will tell you whether the song is an AAC or MP3.

[sirmaru]

Originally Posted by pidgeon92

iTunes can convert AAC to MP3, as can a myriad of other applications. Excerpted from an about.com page:

Thanks for that information on how to convert from AAC to MP3. Are those newly created MP3 files protected in some way like how many devices can use them?

Sometimes in Pandora, the option to buy a song I hear only has an Apple option and not an Amazon option. If the Apple songs purchased were unprotected, I could use them on all my devices.

[Nate the great]

Originally Posted by HarryT

The issue arises when "sharing" actually means "creating an extra copy". It's a totally different matter to lend a paper book to a friend, compared to making a photocopy of the book and giving the photocopy to your friend. That latter action is the exact equivalent of "sharing" an ebook with your friend. It's copyright infringement, plain and simple.

The problem with nitpicking an the extra copy point is that you cannot read an ebook without making multiple copies - one for each of your devices.If having extra copies is bad then you pay for them, right?

Originally Posted by pdurrant

Given the level of ignorance shown in this post, perhaps you should spend more time reading and less time writing?

+1

Yes, if he spent less time reading these threads and posting his thoughts, as bizarre as his thoughts are, he might be able to read two books per year instead of one!