Screwed by Tor again...

[Taylor514ce]

Originally Posted by starrigger

because people were complaining because they were given something for free.

Whoops, there we go into the alternate universe again!

I know! If PNH and others can pretend that I said what he says I said (see above) and ignore what I really said, then I will pretend that HE actually said:

"We're sorry for the misunderstanding our promotion caused. We understand you are eager to purchase e-books to complement and complete the free e-books we gave away. We're working very hard on that with Baen, and will keep you posted on the progress. We're glad you liked the free samples and hope you'll be patient with us, because we value our loyal customers."

There, now I'm happy! Wow, this "pretend people said something" trick is kind of neat!

If anyone from the "let's laugh at my supremely silly customers" universe cares to chime in, let me proactively refer you back to post #179 for clarification. Repeat as necessary.

[nekokami]

Originally Posted by Taylor514ce

If PNH and others can pretend that I said what he says I said (see above) and ignore what I really said, then I will pretend that HE actually said:

"We're sorry for the misunderstanding our promotion caused. We understand you are eager to purchase e-books to complement the free e-books we gave away. We're working very hard on that with Baen, and will keep you posted on the progress. We're glad you liked the free samples and hope you'll be patient with us, because we value our loyal customers."

I like this universe much better.

[slayda]

Originally Posted by starrigger

What DrMoze said. Yes.

...

For those who say that Tor sucks, all I can say is, get real, for heaven's sake. Tor is staffed, from the ground up, by people who love books and who work hard to get as many good books out to people as they can. I can understand why PNH got a little testy in his comment referenced above, because people were complaining because they were given something for free. Maybe he was a little intemperate in his reply to one individual--but even if that's true, he's a human being and he does get testy, but he's not the whole company. He's a senior editor who's taking time from a very busy schedule to answer remarks from readers. He doesn't always answer my emails right away, either, and I'm a Tor author.

I wonder why people who are writers seem to not be able to read or understand what they read. It has been repeatedly stated that the complaint was about the lack of future ebooks, not about free ebooks. Yet the complainers about the complaints do not seem to understand that statement and repeatedly say we should not complain about free ebooks.

I am not aware that anyone has said the "Tor sucks". I may have missed it. I said that we had been "suckered", a totally different word. When we go fishing we put bait on a hook. The fish infers that there is a good meal there but in fact the fish was suckered. I felt that Tor suckered us with ebooks and we inferred that there were more ebooks to be had. Tor syas that was not the case. Issue settled. However we & they still don't feel real great about the whole thing. We'll get over it. Hopefully they will too.

Originally Posted by DrMoze

Tor never "implied" that more e-books would be available. That was your assumption.

According to my understanding & my dictionary - to indicate or suggest, as something naturally to be inferred, without express statement.

Now that suggests an intent on the part of the one giving the implication. I agree that apparently Tor.com did not intend to imply that there would be ebooks for sell at Tor. However there were a great number of people who inferred (not assumed) that Tor did indeed imply that. (Their actions seemed to imply that.) Many times we (and I include myself) say things that others naturally infer to mean something that we did not intend to imply. IMO intent to imply is not necessary for there to be an implication.


Yes I understand now, after some not so nice words both ways, that Tor did not intend to imply. They were upset with us for misunderstanding what they meant. We were upset with them for seeming to mislead us (at least it seemed that way to some of us).

'nuff said. We (and They) miscommunicated but I think we (and they) now understand the situation.

[carld]

Originally Posted by Taylor514ce

"We're sorry for the misunderstanding our promotion caused. We understand you are eager to purchase e-books to complement and complete the free e-books we gave away. We're working very hard on that with Baen, and will keep you posted on the progress. We're glad you liked the free samples and hope you'll be patient with us, because we value our loyal customers."

If only they had said that.

I don't consider myself a stupid person (others are free to disagree), but I also thought the new Tor site was going to be all about eBooks. To be honest I don't think that's entirely my fault. But, perhaps I really am dim after all.

Even so, I was still appreciative of the fine books Tor handed out for free, though I was kind of peeved about not being able to buy any follow-ups for months or possibly years. It wasn't until I read the Tor posts linked here that I became angry.

[DrMoze]

Originally Posted by Taylor514ce

Feel free to pick your side... it's pretty clear where I stand, but I have no interest in arguing.

[igorsk]

Originally Posted by DrMoze

Tor never "implied" that more e-books would be available. That was your assumption. They simply offered samples in a low-cost easy-to-distribute medium.

Here's a quote from one of the emails with free books.

SOMETHING NEW IS COMING.
A science fiction and fantasy site not quite like any you’ve seen before, mixing news, commentary, original stories and art, your own comments and conversations, and more. A place on the net you may find yourself wanting to visit—and participate in—every day. Stay tuned to tor.com.

I don't see why one couldn't assume that "and more" part meant that more ebooks will be available where this one came from.

[DrMoze]

Originally Posted by igorsk

Here's a quote from one of the emails with free books.

I don't see why one couldn't assume that "and more" part meant that more ebooks will be available where this one came from.

One could certainly infer (not 'assume'--I've already been corrected on that point! ) pretty much anything as the teaser you quote is quite vague. But given the general bloggish character of the other items in this list ("news, commentary, original stories and art, your own comments and conversations, and ____"), if this were a bonus Match Game question, I don't think Fannie Flagg or Charles Nelson Reilly would be filling that blank in with "more e-books"!

I certainly understand the misunderstanding and misplaced inferences on both sides (recipients of the announcements/e-books and Tor people). But I honestly think that stating one was "screwed" or "fooled" or "misled" by Tor in this situation is a stretch. Some people who are very focused on their own worldview of e-books made an inference that was a bit of a leap, and on which the Tor.com people were not trying or intending to make. They were starting a bit of an online presence, and promoted it (rather generously, IMO) with a large number of free books distributed in a consistent and cost-effective manner (i.e., in electronic form).

Anyone who complained (yes, complained) that they were suckered in by the teaser and that more books were not available was wrong. For example, from the OP (unedited):

"First, it was Old Man's War by John Scalzi. Free e-book download. Great book, I want more from this author! Sorry, Tor doesn't publish e-books. I'm screwed out of the rest of the series.

This time it was Orphans of Chaos, by John C. Wright. Free e-book. I failed to note the page numbers progressing ever closer to the end, asynchronously to the plot. So yep, the book ended before the story did. Hey, get the next in the series, right? Sorry, Tor doesn't publish e-books. I'm screwed out of the rest of the series."

Ummm, no. Many of the follow-up books are available--just not in electronic form. What, did people all of a sudden become allergic to paper, or forget how to turn pages? No one was 'screwed' or 'fooled.' Many people discovered new authors and series from the freebies. And anyone who did is perfectly capable of buying more books that are in the series, which are available. So what if they're not in e-format right now. Many other books aren't either. Even if 1 or 2 in a series might be. That's like complaining that you can't read a series of books because the first volume you have is in paperback and the rest are only out in hardcover!

[JSWolf]

DrMoze, this is an ongoing problem. And a serious problem too. We have books that are part of a series. yet as far as eBooks go, we don't get the complete series in eBook form. We get part of the series. Usually it's like the last book or two as eBooks. But what we need is to have series in eBook form be complete. This is one reason people won't make the switch. And it's going to hurt eBooks big time if it's not sorted.

[carld]

>So what if they're not in e-format right now.

Well, honestly, for you it's a "so what." Some of us simply cannot be so nonchalant. My eyesight has never been very good, and poor as it is, it's deteriorating due to diabetes. I already struggle to read many printed books. In time I may lose that ability to read regular print at all. I can no longer read the local newspaper, for example (well, I can close my right eye, squint through my left and read one column held up to my nose, but who wants to do that?).

Thank goodness ebooks and eInk have started to become a somewhat viable option. I can continue to enjoy reading even as my eyesight slowly worsens. That's also why I was, mistakenly, excited by Tor's apparent entry into the eBook market, and why I was so disappointed when I realized it wasn't so.

>That's like complaining that you can't read a series of books because the first volume you have is in paperback and the rest are only out in hardcover!

No, it's really not the same thing at all. There is not much difference between reading something as a paperback, or a hardback, as long as you can physically handle books in both sizes. There are significant differences between reading on paper and on e-ink. For some people these differences are just a preference, for some of us it really matters.

I simply won't buy books in paper any longer. I've already purchased print books that I've found I cannot read. Until Tor can provide ebooks I won't be buying anything from them. (And yes, that means going back on my claim that I'll never buy anything from Tor ever again.)

I'll continue trying to get books through the library, so I can at least see if it's something I can handle, but buying paper books is out of the question.

[TheLongshot]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

DrMoze, this is an ongoing problem. And a serious problem too. We have books that are part of a series. yet as far as eBooks go, we don't get the complete series in eBook form. We get part of the series. Usually it's like the last book or two as eBooks. But what we need is to have series in eBook form be complete. This is one reason people won't make the switch. And it's going to hurt eBooks big time if it's not sorted.

Well, if it is the last couple of books, that's more of an issue than just releasing the first book of a series. Fortunately, TOR wasn't guilty of that.

That being said, some of the books that they did give away have first books that can stand on their own. The two I've read, Old Man's War and Crystal Rain, pretty much stand on their own. While I can read more, I don't feel wanting with the others not being available in E-Book form.

It seemed obvious to me from their first E-book release, which was on PDF only, that they weren't really thinking that hard about E-books as a sellable product. They were looking at it as a freebie that they could give away to promote their new web site and some of the series that they publish so that they can sell more p-books. Considering that E-Books is still very much a niche thing right now, that's actually quite understandable. I think if anything this promotion has made them more aware of the demand for E-books than before and now they need to figure out what kind of approach they want to make for it. I wouldn't expect them to come up with a full solution in 6 months.

Jason

[TallMomof2]

I decided a couple of years ago to stop buying pbooks except for some technical and hobby books that don't translate well to a small screen. Some fiction I buy as pbooks but that's exclusively for my kids. That means if the fiction I want to read is not in ebook format at a reasonable price I won't be reading it. For series, I will not read the series until all the books are available in ebook form at a reasonable price.

Maybe, I'll check the book out at the library but my county library rarely has books that I care to read and interlibrary loans take forever.

Tor blew the promotion. Period. I, too, was suspicious when the first book was available only as PDF but figured they were learning and adopted a wait and see attitude. Tor should be upfront about when and what will be available as ebooks. They also should adopt a better attitude when it comes to dealing with potential customers. IMO, this is quite close to a bait and switch scheme. "Here, have some free ebooks!" and then when the promotion is over you're expected to buy pbooks. Ummm, thanks but no thanks.

Lack of clear communication on their part and a jump to (obvious to me) conclusions on our part.

There are plenty of other publishers with substantial ebook catalogs that will be seeing my money.

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by TallMomof2

Tor blew the promotion. Period.

Personally, I was happy with their promotion and don't have any issues with it.
I wasn't expecting any more ebooks than what was on offer .

[Elsi]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

But what we need is to have series in eBook form be complete. This is one reason people won't make the switch. And it's going to hurt eBooks big time if it's not sorted.

Ah, but it's becoming clear that the publishers haven't figured out that they *need* to be concerned about the future of eBooks.

Originally Posted by TheLongshot

It seemed obvious to me from their first E-book release, which was on PDF only, that they weren't really thinking that hard about E-books as a sellable product. They were looking at it as a freebie that they could give away to promote their new web site and some of the series that they publish so that they can sell more p-books. Considering that E-Books is still very much a niche thing right now, that's actually quite understandable. I think if anything this promotion has made them more aware of the demand for E-books than before and now they need to figure out what kind of approach they want to make for it. I wouldn't expect them to come up with a full solution in 6 months.

Bingo!!

And I suddenly saw the original idea when I read Cory Doctorow's explanation why he gives away free eBook versions of his titles:

Originally Posted by Cory Doctorow

What's more, I don't see ebooks as substitute for paper books for most people. It's not that the screens aren't good enough, either: if you're anything like me, you already spend every hour you can get in front of the screen, reading text. But the more computer-literate you are, the less likely you are to be reading long-form works on those screens — that's because computer-literate people do more things with their computers. We run IM and email and we use the browser in a million diverse ways. We have games running in the background, and endless opportunities to tinker with our music libraries. The more you do with your computer, the more likely it is that you'll be interrupted after five to seven minutes to do something else. That makes the computer extremely poorly suited to reading long-form works off of, unless you have the iron self-discipline of a monk.

...

So ebooks sell print books. Every writer I've heard of who's tried giving away ebooks to promote paper books has come back to do it again. That's the commercial case for doing free ebooks.

Now, I'll have to allow that Doctorow wrote this sometime around 2006 before the current generation of dedicated readers were available. I agree with him about reading books on the PC. I've had MobiPocket Reader and the RB eRocket installed on my PC for a long time, but I was never inclined to read a novel on the PC because all the other application there just *nagged* me about not using them.

But once I bought the Kindle, I decided that my book budget was going to be spent on electronic books and not on new paper books. I will continue to buy the occasional used paperback. But if the publisher and author want part of *MY* not inconsiderable book budget, they'll sell eBooks to me. (Note that yesterday, I finished reading book #94 for the year. I'll do the analysis of where the books came from later.)

[HappyMartin]

Well I think it is a bit like giving away the first book in English, for free, and then the rest are for sale in Latin. "Oh sorry, you dont read Latin, how funny." I mean who the hell reads Latin, besides Harry of course.

No one is angry about the free books. We are angry about the lack of availability of e books. I thought that was obvious actually. Perhaps this is all an over reaction but it comes at the end of a looong fight by dedicated people trying there best to get e readers and electronic books more available and accepted. There are loads of comments on this forum made by people hoping Tor would make e books available. Then it seems our prayers are answered only they are not. We dont all want free stuff on this forum. If that was the reality we would all be nicking stuff off the darknet now wouldn't we? We want to buy books, e books.

I suppose we didn't get screwed but we were disappointed and we were misled and Tor did miss a great marketing opportunity and they did screw it up.

Not so very complicated really.

[slayda]

I find it interesting, now that the "free ebook giveaway" is over that they don't even have those ebooks for sell at their site. We know they have them converted & obviously have the digital rights to them since they gave them away but are they for sell? Don't think so. Wonder why.