"fan fiction "......

[QuantumIguana]

Admitting that it began as fan fiction could strengthen Meyer's case, if she chose to make one, but I'm not sure if she could win a suit or not. Have their been other successful cases where people have won lawsuits over scrubbed fanfic? It's not been uncommon to scrub fanfic and sell it as an original work, but it usually is a pretty thorough scrubbing, rather than simply name changes. But in such cases, the author is seldom eager to publicize that it began as a fan fiction, people will see similarities whether or not they are there.

[khalleron]

Originally Posted by Harper Kingsley

The issue is that characters are copyright protected. Considering the amount of people that are able to recognize Ana/Bella and Christian/Edward, Meyer can take James to court at any time. Just because she has chosen not to at this time, doesn't change the fact that she can wait until James amasses large quantities of money, then demand all proceeds. And if she were to die, her heirs have 70 years after her death to file any paperwork.

This is not true for a couple of reasons - if you defend your copyright, you have to do so within a reasonable amount of time after finding out about the infringement. Waiting until your opponent has 'piles of money' will *undermine* your case.

It's called 'amelioration' - you have to do everything in your power to lessen or prevent damages. If you let a situation deteriorate in order to claim larger damages, the court could well find YOU liable for damages.

No, I'm not a lawyer, but I have taken college level business law classes, and this is pretty basic torts.

Given the amount of publicity this has gotten, the fact that Ms. Meyers has not already filed an injunction could mean that she could *never* bring the case to court. Of course, one always has the option of using one's lawyers to bully an opponent into a settlement, but that is an entirely different thing.

Of course, if authors start suing other authors on the basis of 'they got the idea from reading my book,' there will soon be no new novels at all. Everyone gets their ideas from somewhere.

[Harper Kingsley]

Originally Posted by khalleron

Everyone gets their ideas from somewhere.

Exactly. That's inspiration.

But that doesn't mean I should take Luke Skywalker and all the other Star Wars characters, write an AU fanfic with them, build it up super big in fandom, then change his name to Anthony Redthorn, change Vader to Derek Szabo and the Emperor to Granddaddy Payne, then publish that same story as my original work without making any other real changes to it. If someone can look at the story and still recognize Luke Skywalker, Han Solo, Princess Leia, and Darth Vader... then obviously something's wrong.

I can write a story with similar characters and put it out as a parody: "Star Bores: Wall Street Edition." The characters are recognizably those same people, but they're used as caricatures. But once I've claimed a story as fanfiction, right there I've already tied my story to whatever fandom. Which means the creator of those characters can come down on me.

Just because Meyer hasn't done anything, doesn't mean she's going to be so nice to the next person, and other authors will be even more wary of fanfic than they've been before. Which could ruin fandom for all the rest of us; something I really don't want to see happen.

[khalleron]

Originally Posted by Harper Kingsley

Exactly. That's inspiration.

But that doesn't mean I should take Luke Skywalker and all the other Star Wars characters, write an AU fanfic with them, build it up super big in fandom, then change his name to Anthony Redthorn, change Vader to Derek Szabo and the Emperor to Granddaddy Payne, then publish that same story as my original work without making any other real changes to it. If someone can look at the story and still recognize Luke Skywalker, Han Solo, Princess Leia, and Darth Vader... then obviously something's wrong.

I can write a story with similar characters and put it out as a parody: "Star Bores: Wall Street Edition." The characters are recognizably those same people, but they're used as caricatures. But once I've claimed a story as fanfiction, right there I've already tied my story to whatever fandom. Which means the creator of those characters can come down on me.

Just because Meyer hasn't done anything, doesn't mean she's going to be so nice to the next person, and other authors will be even more wary of fanfic than they've been before. Which could ruin fandom for all the rest of us; something I really don't want to see happen.

Funny you should bring up Star Wars. You do realize that George Lucas himself admits it's just a mish-mash of myths and Errol Flynn movies? It's probably the most derivative popular entertainment ever. But because it made a ton of money, it's considered 'legit'. Heh, I 'recognized' Luke Skywalker and the rest of the gang the first time I saw the movie.

Keep in mind I'm not defending EL James - but my argument with her work is that it's flat out bad writing (but I have the same argument with JK Rowling, too), not that her work is derivative (same as Lucas and also Rowling).

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by Harper Kingsley

Considering the amount of people that are able to recognize Ana/Bella and Christian/Edward, Meyer can take James to court at any time.

From the description of the book, I wouldn't say that they have anything in common after the names were changed.

[Yapyap]

As far as I can tell, without having read either Twilight or Fifty Shades, you have similarities in that there are some similarities in the characters' family backgrounds, that Ana is clumsy (like Bella), that Christian is all hot, and...

...I'm not sure that would be enough to point at them and say that "this clumsy dark-haired stupid American college graduate whose parents are separated/divorced is a copyright-infringing copy of that clumsy dark-haired stupid American high school student whose parents are separated/divorced, and this copper-haired 26-year-old extremely hot sadist billionaire businessman is a copyright-infringing copy of a sparkling hot young vampire who looks 17 and goes to high-school".

I mean, if I wrote an original book with a really smart know-it-all bushy-haired English middle-class-family university student and her snarky black-haired chemistry professor from working-class roots, could JKR sue me on the basis of the characters being too similar to Hermione and Snape?

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by Yapyap

As far as I can tell, without having read either Twilight or Fifty Shades, you have similarities in that there are some similarities in the characters' family backgrounds, that Ana is clumsy (like Bella), that Christian is all hot, and...

Right, clumsy female meets hot male has never been seen before Twilight.

[spindlegirl]

I found this article in which Stephenie Meyer weighs in on the 50 Shades Trilogy.

Disclaimer, I have never read either author, but only know that they both wrote popular books.

"I haven't read it. I mean, that's really not my genre, not my thing," she said with a laugh. "I've heard about it; I haven't really gotten into it that much. Good on her — she's doing well. That's great!"

"Fifty Shades" follows the sadomasochistic affair of college graduate Ana Steele and dominant billionaire Christian Grey. Their relationship begins as a purely physical attraction, but as they become engrossed in each other and start to fall in love, Ana realizes Christian's past might not be something she wants to uncover. Christian represents Edward Cullen, a brooding, self-deprecating and impossibly good-looking man with a few secrets, while Ana is an adaptation of the clumsy and shy Bella Swan. Without Meyer's novel, "Fifty Shades" might not exist.

"It might not exist in the exact form that it's in," Meyer said. "Obviously, [James] had a story in her, and so it would've come out in some other way."

[Yapyap]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

Right, clumsy female meets hot male has never been seen before Twilight.

That's what I'm thinking.

I mean, the one more or less original thing about Twilight characters was the hot vampire who still goes to high school and sparkles in sunlight. Remove that and you're left with characters who are perfectly ordinary; remove the whole vampire thing and high school thing, turn one character into a college graduate and another into billionaire businessman, and you're left with characters who don't really sound very copyright-infringing to me, even if some people recognise some characteristic traits (clumsy, hair colour, family, background) about them that remind them of characters from another book.

Now that people know that this was Twilight fanfic, with the characters originally based on Twilight characters, I don't doubt that many people who have read both do see enough similarities to think "oh yeah, they really are Bella and Edward"; would the majority of readers (even those who have read both) have drawn that conclusion if the original fanfic hadn't been popular and the fanfic connection had never come out, though?

Or would they at most just have gone "oh, in some ways, this Ana person reminds me of Bella from Twilight at times, she's just as clumsy, and Christian is all hot and stalkerish, a bit like Edward", in a way that people often draw parallels with characters/situations/plots of other books they've read, when they want to describe something? I read a LOT of books (especially in genre fiction) that remind me of other books, with characters whose occupations/looks/behaviour occasionally feels "vaguely familiar", but there's no way for me to even know whether the author of the book in question even read the thing it reminds me of, or whether it's just some genre/character trope or random coincidence, e.g. with the characters based on real people and real common behaviour traits.

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by Yapyap

Or would they at most just have gone "oh, in some ways, this Ana person reminds me of Bella from Twilight at times, she's just as clumsy, and Christian is all hot and stalkerish, a bit like Edward", in a way that people often draw parallels with characters/situations/plots of other books they've read, when they want to describe something? I read a LOT of books (especially in genre fiction) that remind me of other books, with characters whose occupations/looks/behaviour occasionally feels "vaguely familiar", but there's no way for me to even know whether the author of the book in question even read the thing it reminds me of, or whether it's just some genre/character trope or random coincidence, e.g. with the characters based on real people and real common behaviour traits.

I see parallels between Twilight and the TV show Roswell. The highschool girl finds out that the other student is an vampire/alien when he saves her from a car accident. He doesn't want her to know his secret but eventually she does and she goes through the whole "I thought that vampires/aliens are just imaginary" phase.

[crich70]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I'm not a lawyer, but as a software author I am reasonably familiar with the workings of (UK) copyright law, through the practical process of chasing down infringers of the copyright on my software for the last 20-odd years, and having had innumerable conversations with my helpful solicitor about what does and doesn't constitute infringement. Practical experience is a good teacher.

What kind of software do you create Harry?

[crich70]

Originally Posted by DrNefario

I didn't think Harry's posts were insulting at all. It's a pretty strong statement of a position, but that's all it is. There are no personal attacks, unlike the responses to Harry's posts.

There is an awful lot of defensiveness in this thread, including some convoluted manoeuvres to try to claim fan fiction is completely legit. Maybe they'd work in court, but they seem to open the door for a number of less innocent things if they do.

My feeling is that it isn't really legal, but is tolerated. I don't see a problem there. Most sites and authors are probably prepared to pull everything if it ceases to be tolerated. (Although it's been on the internet by then; it's probably too late.) They are aware that they are not standing on solid ground.

I think the law is kind of inadequate, although I have no idea how to fix it.

Part of the problem I think is that the law hasn't kept pace with the technology. I mean when most copyright laws were written in the 1st place there was no internet and the potential spread of a fan fiction of such like Star Trek for example was limited to a few fans who had mimeographed or photocopied copies of a story someone wrote. When the first adaptation of Dracula was made in the 1920's (i.e. Nosferatu) they forgot to get permission from Mr. Stoker's estate and his widow tried to have all prints of the movie destroyed. She failed of course as it still exists today, but the fact is there have been problems with copyright and what is and isn't covered for a long time. And no one really considered the possibility of something like the internet one day making it more complex I think.

[crich70]

Originally Posted by QuantumIguana

I haven't seen that. I have seen Stargate novels on Smashwords, but they had a disclaimer "An original publication of Fandemonium Ltd, produced under license from MGM Consumer Products", so they aren't fanfic. There are books like "The Nitpicker's Guide to Star Trek", which don't need permission.

Is that the guide to Classic Trek or is it a nitpickers guide to The Next Generation?

[DrNefario]

Originally Posted by crich70

Part of the problem I think is that the law hasn't kept pace with the technology. I mean when most copyright laws were written in the 1st place there was no internet and the potential spread of a fan fiction of such like Star Trek for example was limited to a few fans who had mimeographed or photocopied copies of a story someone wrote. When the first adaptation of Dracula was made in the 1920's (i.e. Nosferatu) they forgot to get permission from Mr. Stoker's estate and his widow tried to have all prints of the movie destroyed. She failed of course as it still exists today, but the fact is there have been problems with copyright and what is and isn't covered for a long time. And no one really considered the possibility of something like the internet one day making it more complex I think.

I agree. The original copyright laws were to prevent people printing and selling unauthorised copies and not paying royalties. I don't think it was really even envisaged that out-of-copyright works would be available so easily and cheaply to us readers. The nearest we used to get was cheap paperbacks.

[covingtoncat73]

Originally Posted by crich70

Part of the problem I think is that the law hasn't kept pace with the technology. I mean when most copyright laws were written in the 1st place there was no internet and the potential spread of a fan fiction of such like Star Trek for example was limited to a few fans who had mimeographed or photocopied copies of a story someone wrote. When the first adaptation of Dracula was made in the 1920's (i.e. Nosferatu) they forgot to get permission from Mr. Stoker's estate and his widow tried to have all prints of the movie destroyed. She failed of course as it still exists today, but the fact is there have been problems with copyright and what is and isn't covered for a long time. And no one really considered the possibility of something like the internet one day making it more complex I think.

Now I love Nosferatu but it wasn't the first Vampire movie, though the first ones actually had female Vampires.

Missed being first by a couple of years but was before Nosferatu and frowns on your shenanigans.