Blatantly political rant

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by Donnageddon

Now you steal CocaCola's song!!!! Have you no sense of decency!!

ROAR!!!

All right, FINE Coca Cola!! (would you like to step outside for just a moment? I have something I'd like to show you.....)

[Donnageddon]

So we meet at last, desertgrandma! I will have you know tha.. ***Thwackkk****


urgh.... *thud*

[pshrynk]

Well, so much for trying to elevate the level of discourse.

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

Well, I just stuck what I thought was a good news item, on the thread, lacking a better place for it...

Phsrynk, what you have read is a microcosmism of the big picture politics you dislike.

In one corner, you have people who want to be left alone to live their lives, to succeed or fail, on their own terms. They may or may not be concerned about the big picture future, but either way they want their choices to be their own. If they want help, they'll ask for it.

In the other corner, you have people who are concerned about the big picture failings of the society, and want to make the world a better place. And the best way to do that is to use power (whether it be State, evangelical, incentivization, or any other) to get people to change. Whether they want to or not. Whether it's actual good for them in the long term (which at the time can only be a projection). These people don't value the viewpoints of the leave-me-alone types, and tend to look down their noses at them (they're too simple to understand the failing that need to be changed).

The current political situation has come about because enough of the leave-me-alone types have gotten fed up with having their lives twisted, turned, and doubled over by the consequences of the world-savers. It turns out that there are a lot of them, about as many as there are world-savers.

The world-savers have been used to a monopoly on control, which has been successfully challenged. The response is - Gasp...How dare they. Back in your place! And hence the gridlock, and each side digging in, and the nasty politics you've seen.

I obviously am in the leave-me-alone camp.....

Well said. Could you make room by your campfire?

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

In one corner, you have people who want to be left alone to live their lives, to succeed or fail, on their own terms. They may or may not be concerned about the big picture future, but either way they want their choices to be their own. If they want help, they'll ask for it.

But how do they prevent their choices impacting on other people?

[nekokami]

Now... about this "leave me alone" group... have you read "Coventry" by Heinlein?

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

Well said. Could you make room by your campfire?

Coffee in the pot...

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by nekokami

Now... about this "leave me alone" group... have you read "Coventry" by Heinlein?

Many times. Remember, the Covenant also limited what the group (the Government) could do as well.... And if you didn't like the rules, there was Coventry....

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

I obviously am in the leave-me-alone camp.....

...and that, equally obviously, makes me an evangelicizer. Must have something to do with why I write. And I admit, I'd love it if there were few enough people in the world that it didn't matter whether or not everyone was on-board with a certain idea... those who weren't could simply adjourn to the bar across the street, and wait for the dust to settle.

But as there are almost 7 billion of us here, every day we get closer to the day when many of our freedoms can be expected to be taken from us, simply because we can no longer afford the luxury of it. That's a day I don't look forward to, and not just because I'd hate to lose a "freedom"... but the longer we wait, the more painful that loss is going to be.

So, yes, I try to flag people to warn them of the end of the tracks, instead of allowing them to continue headlong for them... because ultimately, either they will drag me along to crash with them, or they'll crash on their own, and I'll be one of those left to clean up after them.

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by Sparrow

But how do they prevent their choices impacting on other people?

On a case-by-case basis. But you have to show the impact...

(The old saw - The right to swing my fist ends where your nose begins, and vice versa...)

I concur this gets stickier with the force multiplier of technology, but it's still a measurable basis.

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

...and that, equally obviously, makes me an evangelicizer. Must have something to do with why I write. And I admit, I'd love it if there were few enough people in the world that it didn't matter whether or not everyone was on-board with a certain idea... those who weren't could simply adjourn to the bar across the street, and wait for the dust to settle.

But as there are almost 7 billion of us here, every day we get closer to the day when many of our freedoms can be expected to be taken from us, simply because we can no longer afford the luxury of it. That's a day I don't look forward to, and not just because I'd hate to lose a "freedom"... but the longer we wait, the more painful that loss is going to be.

So, yes, I try to flag people to warn them of the end of the tracks, instead of allowing them to continue headlong for them... because ultimately, either they will drag me along to crash with them, or they'll crash on their own, and I'll be one of those left to clean up after them.

Or maybe....There won't be a crash? This is still the future, and nobody knows how it will work out...(Somehow we made it through the cold war without nuclear armegeddon.)

[vivaldirules]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

Well, I just stuck what I thought was a good news item, on the thread, lacking a better place for it...

Phsrynk, what you have read is a microcosmism of the big picture politics you dislike.

In one corner, you have people who want to be left alone to live their lives, to succeed or fail, on their own terms. They may or may not be concerned about the big picture future, but either way they want their choices to be their own. If they want help, they'll ask for it.

In the other corner, you have people who are concerned about the big picture failings of the society, and want to make the world a better place. And the best way to do that is to use power (whether it be State, evangelical, incentivization, or any other) to get people to change. Whether they want to or not. Whether it's actual good for them in the long term (which at the time can only be a projection). These people don't value the viewpoints of the leave-me-alone types, and tend to look down their noses at them (they're too simple to understand the failing that need to be changed).

The current political situation has come about because enough of the leave-me-alone types have gotten fed up with having their lives twisted, turned, and doubled over by the consequences of the world-savers. It turns out that there are a lot of them, about as many as there are world-savers.

The world-savers have been used to a monopoly on control, which has been successfully challenged. The response is - Gasp...How dare they. Back in your place! And hence the gridlock, and each side digging in, and the nasty politics you've seen.

I obviously am in the leave-me-alone camp.....

I think that describes it exceptionally well. Let me suggest a few thoughts to make it clear from the other (world-savers') view, of which I lean more towards. I understand and appreciate the desire to be left alone particularly when others have shown their incompetence at fixing things. No argument. But the people who are agitating to get things changed see those in the leave-me-alone camp as crucial to solving problems - unwilling to make, or even consider making, changes that might be positive for us all. If people aren't willing even to consider change, then we're stuck in the same situation until it all craps out (if it does). Pick your topic of change - it doesn't matter. Want to talk about energy, carbon, and the environment? I see the people who just want to keep their 2000+ square foot homes in the suburbs with their green lawns that they water from precious water from the aquifer and consuming gasoline to commute in their vehicles to town as a large immovable mass that just wants to be left alone. I appreciate that but if doesn't move, we could be in really deep doo-doo if any of this is real. I consider the possibility that they're real to be finite and if the consequences are at all large, we're toast pretty soon unless all of us, including the immovable object, shifts. Hey, it's war time, as far as I'm concerned. We need people to sign up and soon.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Unfortunately, most people will wait until the disasters strike, before taking action... and by then, the cost will be much more painful for us all to bear.

In other words, it does little good to complain about a dangerous intersection, if no one acts. And when someone (or three) does die in a crash, look at what you've lost by not acting when you should have.

I don't want to wait until my Father has me on the phone, because his state just floated away, before people start to act.

But alas, no one believes disasters will ever happen... and when it does, they all look for someone to criticize for not warning them louder.

[slayda]

Hey, Ralph Sir Edward. We knew you were a "leave me alone" type. You're from Texas. And Desertgrandma is from Arizona - a suburb of Texas.

Being an antisocial type, I have the same desire but when you're in a lifeboat in the middle of the ocean and someone has the bright idea to, "Let's everyone carve our initials in the bottom of the boat for posterity.", it might be a good idea to speak up and maybe even to take his knife away from him.

It's a thorny issue and we each draw the line at different points. Personally I could argue either side passionately. Guess that just makes me confused.

[vivaldirules]

I'm a 4th generation native Texan but I've usually thought little of it. On the one hand, I'm a leave me alone "Oh, my god, can you believe what those idiots have done again?" independent Texan. People make lousy decisions so stay away from me. I'm also an "Oh, my god, look what's coming right at us! Let's move!" Texan who's wants to step to the front of the line to fight for what's right. My guess is that we'll all still be having these kinds of arguments as the boat finally sinks.