Secondhand ebooks?

[Catlady]

Sheesh, that's the point. They don't.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Catlady

Sheesh, that's the point. They don't.

Yes, as you say, that's the point. And neither does any physical store, does it? So what you're saying is that you're not bound by the terms of the contract you're entering into with the store because the store is acting just as EVERY store does. So all contracts are, in fact, invalid. Have I understood you correctly?

[tompe]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Yes, as you say, that's the point. And neither does any physical store, does it? So what you're saying is that you're not bound by the terms of the contract you're entering into with the store because the store is not doing something that, in fact, NO store does. So all contracts are, in fact, invalid. Have I understood you correctly?

You have still not given any example of a physical store that give less rights then the laws and what is obvious. So what examples do you have?

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Thasaidon

I am not saying you are totally wrong just that in UK law just because you put something in the T & Cs does not mean it is necessarily legal or enforceable.

In the second example I gave the T & Cs were not hidden but "printed on the back of the ticket" you received.

Presumably the relevant point there, though, was that you couldn't see them until you'd bought the ticket? "Shrink wrap" licences, where you can't see the terms of the licence until after you've bought the product, have been deemed to be invalid in many cases for that very reason.

I would suggest, though, that this is not the case for eBook stores. They all have their T&Cs available to be looked at. I don't personally think that the fact that the don't wave them in front of the customer's face at the time of purchase changes that, but I guess that's a matter for a court to decide.

[BeccaPrice]

I have to admit, I'd like it better if Amazon had, under the Buy button, a link that said "Terms and conditions" like their "How buying works" - the later link just says how to download, and says nothing about only buying a license.

(new) In fact, I looked all over the Amazon site and didn't find the kindle terms and conditions. I had to google "amazon kindle terms and conditions" to find the page. Not exactly in plain sight.

[HarryT]

It's linked to from the Kindle Support page.

[Cpl Punishment]

Originally Posted by CyGuy

I don't feel the need to "stamp my feet" even a tiny bit. I know exactly what I purchased. As for the TOS you quoted, again it is not binding or applicable to anything. It could say: "You are authorized to read this ebook only while wearing a purple shirt on the third Saturday of any month that begins with the letter J". It really does mean nothing. Amazon (or others) do not write law, they do not decide what you can or cannot do with anything.

Well then we have come full circle in this thread

......You pressed: Agree. then pressed buy...

It all personal integrity...You have it or you don't...There is nothing else...

[speakingtohe]

AFAIk there has been no legal decision made in any country as to whether first sale doctrine rights apply to digital content although although it seems that the legal opinion of the US government is no.

The First Sale Doctrine Defined:

“First Sale Doctrine refers to the right of a buyer of a material object in which a copyrighted work is embodied to resell or transfer the object itself. Ownership of copyright is distinct from ownership of the material object. Section 109 of the Copyright Act permits the owner of a particular copy or phonorecord lawfully made under the Copyright Law to sell or otherwise dispose of possession of that copy or phonorecord without the authority of the copyright owner.



Commonly referred to as the "first sale doctrine," this provision permits such activities as the sale of used books. The first sale doctrine is subject to limitations that permit a copyright owner to prevent the unauthorized commercial rental of computer programs and sound recordings.” US Government Publication 04-8copyright. http://www.cendi.gov/publications/04-8copyright.html



One of the ongoing discussions about copyrighted ebooks is whether the “first sale doctrine” can be applied to a digital book. Can a person sell a used copyrighted ebook?

Right now, the US Government as well as most other governments say no. (see iTunes White Paper link below)

Look at the US Government definition above to see one of the reasons why. First sale doctrine only applies to a “material object” like a paper book. A copyrighted digital book isn’t an object, it’s content, and content can’t be copied and, therefore, can’t be resold.

http://www.cendi.gov/publications/04-8copyright.html
From:
http://marilynnbyerly.com/firstsaledoctrin.html

Not saying this is the current status of the law for sure, but seems to me that it is and the only way the terms of sale of Amazon or anyone else affect this is that if they give you permission to sell your ebook etc.

Anyone with different or more recent government decisions relating to resale/and or personal lending of ebooks, please share.


Helen

[AndrewH]

Originally Posted by Cpl Punishment

It all personal integrity...You have it or you don't...There is nothing else...

Treating an ebook like you would a paper book is lacking in integrity?

Perhaps the publishers and retailers are lacking in integrity by imposing ridiculous restrictions on their goods.

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Yes, as you say, that's the point. And neither does any physical store, does it? So what you're saying is that you're not bound by the terms of the contract you're entering into with the store because the store is acting just as EVERY store does. So all contracts are, in fact, invalid. Have I understood you correctly?

No.

My implied contract with a store is that I pay for the merchandise that they provide. They are quite free to set the rules about whether they'll accept cash or checks or credit cards; they are generally free to set policies about returns and exchanges and final sales; they even are free to tell me I can't shop in their brick and mortar store in my bare feet. They are not free to tell me what I may or may not do with my purchase once I pay for it and leave the store.

Do you know of any physical or online store that claims a right to monitor and/or inhibit my use of the physical product I purchased?

The model we are all used to is that "buy" means you pay for it, it's yours, end of story.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by Catlady

Please stop saying they are not hidden. Hidden does not mean completely invisible or absent; of course the information is there and can be found if the customer tries hard enough and knows where to look. But it is not presented at the time of each purchase--what the customer sees is a big ol' BUY button, the same as appears for every nondigital purchase.

Thank you.

The key issue, in my mind: how obvious is it, and how many clicks does it take, to get from a random ebook listing to the terms associated with that purchase? If there's no "click here for the legal aspects of this purchase" link, it's hidden.

I believe there isn't even a set of terms labeled for ebooks... there's the KINDLE terms of use, but nothing about the content itself. It's not clear at all that the Kindle terms, which are often assumed to belong to the device, are also applicable to the Kindle apps.

[SteveEisenberg]

Originally Posted by Cpl Punishment

It all personal integrity...You have it or you don't...

If there's any lesson I've gotten from great literature, it's that life is more complicated than this.

[Giggleton]

Originally Posted by Ninjalawyer

Amazon doesn't write laws, but they do write contracts though, which is what you're entering into and can be binding on you.

Why do we need to enter into a contractual agreement when we share books?

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by Giggleton

Why do we need to enter into a contractual agreement when we share books?

We don't i we just take them or distribute them without the owners permission. Why do we need a contract to rent a car. We could sahre it by hotwiring it and driving it for a day and bring it back.

A contract is just a standardized agreement. a lot of implicit agreements can result in unpleasant legal consequences for those who break them, such as shoplifting, dine and dash etc.

Thunderbolts will descend on my head I am sure, but if you want to share that ebook and expect approval do it the right way. Lend them your reader, sign them up to your account, find them a copy at their library. If you don't trust them with your reader or account and can't be bothered to look up the book for them, then recommend the book and they can get their own copy. The world will probably not end for them or for you.

Helen

[covingtoncat73]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

We don't i we just take them or distribute them without the owners permission. Why do we need a contract to rent a car. We could sahre it by hotwiring it and driving it for a day and bring it back.

A contract is just a standardized agreement. a lot of implicit agreements can result in unpleasant legal consequences for those who break them, such as shoplifting, dine and dash etc.

Thunderbolts will descend on my head I am sure, but if you want to share that ebook and expect approval do it the right way. Lend them your reader, sign them up to your account, find them a copy at their library. If you don't trust them with your reader or account and can't be bothered to look up the book for them, then recommend the book and they can get their own copy. The world will probably not end for them or for you.

Helen

This is probably a good point. My mom is on a long vacation. I sent her with my Kobo so she finally got to read <I>The Thousand Autumns of Jacob due Zoet</I> and loved it. I had bought a book club read, <We Need to Talk Abound Kevin</I>, :?P but she got to read it on the device while I read it with this app on my tablet. I have gotten used hardcovers from Amazon marketplace of books I really love/want to share but bought in eBook. I do also buy with and read on the Kindle app.