Secondhand ebooks?

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Thasaidon

It goes further than that in the UK. In a number of circumstances even if the customer has technically "agreed" to a supplier's T & Cs they are not valid and cannot be legally enforced.

e.g. !. if the T & Cs are inside a shrink wrapped product and cannot be read before purchase.

2. A carparking company printed its T & C's on the back of the tickets it issued. It was held in court that they could not be enforced because the customer could only read them after paying for the ticket.

3. Where they are the supplier's standard T & Cs and contain clauses the court thinks are "unfair" or attempt to limit or abrogate the customer's statutory rights.

But none of that is true with Amazon's T&Cs.

They are not "hidden".

Anybody can read them before purchase.

It is the accepted industry practice not to permit the resale of digitally-downloaded goods.

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Perhaps "illegal" is the wrong word to use then. But I imagine (perhaps wrongly) that the fact that no bookstore I'm aware of makes you agree to its terms and conditions before every purchase means that they don't believe it's necessary for you to do so. Strangely enough, though, when I buy items in a physical store, THEY don't make me agree to all their terms and conditions before I buy, either!

The only store I know of that makes you agree to the terms every time there's a change is the Apple store. I've many times gone to purchase something downloadable only to be greeted with a popup stating that their terms have changed, and I must read and agree to the new terms, then try my purchase again.

EDIT: I see 5thWiggle has already made this point. Once more, I'm a day late and a store credit short.

[CyGuy]

Some of you are giving way too much authority to these TOS and/or EULA.
First of all, Amazon (etc) does not write law or dictate what you can or can’t do with anything.
Second, you purchased a product and not a license.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by CyGuy

Second, you purchased a product and not a license.

Not according to your agreement with Amazon you didn't.

Interestingly, one of the points of the current lawsuit against Harlequin is precisely that fact that eBook sales ARE licences.

[CyGuy]

Again, you purchased a product and not a license. There are many reasons why this is the case but I can provide an easy to comprehend comparison/example:
Renting a DVD costs about $1. Purchasing a DVD costs about $10. It is very easy to see which is which based solely on the price. When the most expensive ebook you can purchase is $1 we can revisit this “issue”. As it stands now the only ebook “license” is when you borrow a book from a library and return it…

[HarryT]

I fail to see what cost has to do with it. Is there a law which says that licences have to be inexpensive?

[spindlegirl]

I agree with Cyguy above. If there are two copies of a book available and one (a paperback) is 12.99, and the other is a teeny bit lower because it's "digital", and they are advertised as the same thing in an on line store, I am going to assume that the e-book is just as much a book as the paperback. Sometimes the e-book costs as much as the paperback.

However, if the paperback is the only object that gives me any rights, I'll borrow the e-copy from the library and buy the paperback. The paperback feels more like mine since I don't need a third-party's approval over what I can do with it - if I hate the book, I just give it to someone else... and no grey areas have even been blinked at.

It's one of the reasons I tend to flock to the freebies and the cheap e-books. A digital file, being merely a license to read something on my computer, is something I'll happily only pay a couple of dollars for. But not real-book prices. If I want to borrow a book, take me to the library.

[Cpl Punishment]

Originally Posted by CyGuy

Again, you purchased a product and not a license. …

You can stamp your feet all you want..

1. Digital Content

Use of Digital Content. Upon your download of Digital Content and payment of any applicable fees (including applicable taxes), the Content Provider grants you a non-exclusive right to view, use, and display such Digital Content an unlimited number of times, solely on the Kindle or a Reading Application or as otherwise permitted as part of the Service, solely on the number of Kindles or Other Devices specified in the Kindle Store, and solely for your personal, non-commercial use. Digital Content is licensed, not sold, to you by the Content Provider. The Content Provider may include additional terms for use within its Digital Content. Those terms will also apply, but this Agreement will govern in the event of a conflict. Some Digital Content, such as Periodicals, may not be available to you through Reading Applications.

[spindlegirl]

The way that license reads, means even DRM removal is not acceptable. Take it even further, I can't call my husband to my cloud reader and say 'hey, read this neat "book" I got!' That's the impression I receive when I take each sentence as worded.

I can understand why there can't be secondhand e-books, but the above license terms for even personal use are quite extreme.

[covingtoncat73]

Originally Posted by spindlegirl

I agree with Cyguy above. If there are two copies of a book available and one (a paperback) is 12.99, and the other is a teeny bit lower because it's "digital", and they are advertised as the same thing in an on line store, I am going to assume that the e-book is just as much a book as the paperback. Sometimes the e-book costs as much as the paperback.

However, if the paperback is the only object that gives me any rights, I'll borrow the e-copy from the library and buy the paperback. The paperback feels more like mine since I don't need a third-party's approval over what I can do with it - if I hate the book, I just give it to someone else... and no grey areas have even been blinked at.

It's one of the reasons I tend to flock to the freebies and the cheap e-books. A digital file, being merely a license to read something on my computer, is something I'll happily only pay a couple of dollars for. But not real-book prices. If I want to borrow a book, take me to the library.

I agree. I hope eBooks come down in price because their use is so much more restricted.

I have noticed that digital music seems to be coming down in price. I was able to get 3 of the albums on my wishlist with Amazon for $2.99 each (granted most albums are more). I don't see why any eBook needs to be more than $2.99.

[CyGuy]

Originally Posted by Cpl Punishment

You can stamp your feet all you want..

1. Digital Content

Use of Digital Content. Upon your download of Digital Content and payment of any applicable fees (including applicable taxes), the Content Provider grants you a non-exclusive right to view, use, and display such Digital Content an unlimited number of times, solely on the Kindle or a Reading Application or as otherwise permitted as part of the Service, solely on the number of Kindles or Other Devices specified in the Kindle Store, and solely for your personal, non-commercial use. Digital Content is licensed, not sold, to you by the Content Provider. The Content Provider may include additional terms for use within its Digital Content. Those terms will also apply, but this Agreement will govern in the event of a conflict. Some Digital Content, such as Periodicals, may not be available to you through Reading Applications.

I don't feel the need to "stamp my feet" even a tiny bit. I know exactly what I purchased. As for the TOS you quoted, again it is not binding or applicable to anything. It could say: "You are authorized to read this ebook only while wearing a purple shirt on the third Saturday of any month that begins with the letter J". It really does mean nothing. Amazon (or others) do not write law, they do not decide what you can or cannot do with anything.

[Ninjalawyer]

Originally Posted by CyGuy

Some of you are giving way too much authority to these TOS and/or EULA.
First of all, Amazon (etc) does not write law or dictate what you can or can’t do with anything.
Second, you purchased a product and not a license.

Amazon doesn't write laws, but they do write contracts though, which is what you're entering into and can be binding on you.

There's some interesting case law in the EU on software licenses recently in this area, but your mileage on that may vary depending on your jurisdiction. In Canada, for example, courts have generally accepted website EULAs as binding on site users. In the UK, there have been very few cases applicable to EULAs (obviously cases that deal with contracts generally would apply).

[Thasaidon]

Originally Posted by HarryT

But none of that is true with Amazon's T&Cs.

They are not "hidden".

Anybody can read them before purchase.

It is the accepted industry practice not to permit the resale of digitally-downloaded goods.

I am not saying you are totally wrong just that in UK law just because you put something in the T & Cs does not mean it is necessarily legal or enforceable.

In the second example I gave the T & Cs were not hidden but "printed on the back of the ticket" you received.

It has also been ruled in certain cases that even putting up a sign saying that T & Cs are available for perusal is insufficient to make them binding.

This can be a tricky area and a number of big companies have got it wrong over the years.

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by HarryT

But none of that is true with Amazon's T&Cs.

They are not "hidden".

Anybody can read them before purchase.

It is the accepted industry practice not to permit the resale of digitally-downloaded goods.

Please stop saying they are not hidden. Hidden does not mean completely invisible or absent; of course the information is there and can be found if the customer tries hard enough and knows where to look. But it is not presented at the time of each purchase--what the customer sees is a big ol' BUY button, the same as appears for every nondigital purchase.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Catlady

Please stop saying they are not hidden. Hidden does not mean completely invisible or absent; of course the information is there and can be found if the customer tries hard enough and knows where to look. But it is not presented at the time of each purchase--what the customer sees is a big ol' BUY button, the same as appears for every nondigital purchase.

Can you name ANY eBook store which presents you with its terms and conditions of purchase every time that you buy a book?