Secondhand ebooks?

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by Giggleton

So books bought through Amazon should not have first sale rights, but books bought at other vendors should?

Yes, Amazon as a corporate individual can end its relationship with any other corporate individual at any time or vice versa, but is it right for Amazon to deny the secondhand sale of their ebooks?

books bought from any seller have the same rights. No one suggested that Amazon should have any extra rights that I have seen.

Helen

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Catlady

I created my Amazon account, oh, maybe 15 years ago. Has Amazon ever changed any terms over that time span? If so, they never advised me.

I cannot be held to terms I didn't specifically agree to. Amazon could insert a clause somewhere saying a customer has to sign over his or her firstborn child--doesn't mean it's enforceable, even if the customer once ticked the "agree" box on a form.

Can you name ANY online store that makes you agree to the T&CS every time that you buy something? I can't think of one, and yet they all seem to muddle on through somehow. I'm sure they aren't all breaking the law.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Is it legal to try to enforce the terms & conditions when Amazon never made me read them and never made me agree to them? So, I've never read the t&c and I've never read the t&c. If buying an eBook from Amazon enforces the t&c, then Amazon needs to present them to me to read and then agree to them.

What ebook store operates any differently, Jon? That's a serious question. Does Sony make you read the T&C every time you buy a book? Does B&N?

[tompe]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Can you name ANY online store that makes you agree to the T&CS every time that you buy something? I can't think of one, and yet they all seem to muddle on through somehow. I'm sure they aren't all breaking the law.

When I buy a train ticket in Sweden using the web shop I have to agree to the conditions every time I buy a ticket. I have seen other stores having the same type of checkbox you have to check before being allowed to buy.

But why do you think it would be breaking the law? The argument is that the conditions are not enforeceable not that it is illegal not to inform about conditions.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by tompe

When I buy a train ticket in Sweden using the web shop I have to agree to the conditions every time I buy a ticket. I have seen other stores having the same type of checkbox you have to check before being allowed to buy.

But why do you think it would be breaking the law? The argument is that the conditions are not enforeceable not that it is illegal not to informa about conditions.

Perhaps "illegal" is the wrong word to use then. But I imagine (perhaps wrongly) that the fact that no bookstore I'm aware of makes you agree to its terms and conditions before every purchase means that they don't believe it's necessary for you to do so. Strangely enough, though, when I buy items in a physical store, THEY don't make me agree to all their terms and conditions before I buy, either!

[tompe]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Perhaps "illegal" is the wrong word to use then. But I imagine (perhaps wrongly) that the fact that no bookstore I'm aware of makes you agree to its terms and conditions before every purchase means that they don't believe it's necessary for you to do so. Strangely enough, though, when I buy items in a physical store, THEY don't make me agree to all their terms and conditions before I buy, either!

What extra terms does a physical store have that is not regulated by laws? I do not know about any such extra term.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by tompe

What extra terms does a physical store have that is not regulated by laws? I do not know about any such extra term.

I'm thinking of things like return policies, which are normally a matter of store policy, not the law.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I'm thinking of things like return policies, which are normally a matter of store policy, not the law.

Well, no not really. The law stipulates a minimal leval in the return policy. The store can then have a better return policy but never a worse return policy. What we talked about here was nowing about conditions that are worse than the ones you expect.

Also physical places were you for example rent a car definitely have checkboxes for understanding the terms.

[5thWiggle]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Can you name ANY online store that makes you agree to the T&CS every time that you buy something? I can't think of one, and yet they all seem to muddle on through somehow. I'm sure they aren't all breaking the law.

When the TOS changes at the Apple App Store, you must review and re-agree before you can complete a purchase. I've had this happen about 3-4 times now. Much less onerous than clicking "agree" for every purchase.

[Giggleton]

I thought it was well established that Click Through Agreements are not legally binding.

But we are talking about lending ebooks here.

But perhaps we should not be discussing lending since the digital does not require us to lend, all we need is access...

Should we force Amazon and other ebook distributors to allow us to lend our ebooks??

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Can you name ANY online store that makes you agree to the T&CS every time that you buy something? I can't think of one, and yet they all seem to muddle on through somehow. I'm sure they aren't all breaking the law.

Who said they were breaking the law? The issue is whether the consumer can be bound by an agreement that he or she does not specifically agree to.

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I'm thinking of things like return policies, which are normally a matter of store policy, not the law.

There is a difference between a store setting polices about how it will conduct its own business and a store attempting to restrict my use of something after I buy it.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Catlady

The issue is whether the consumer can be bound by an agreement that he or she does not specifically agree to.

The best way to answer this question would be to put it to the test by selling some of your old eBooks, I guess.

[spindlegirl]

Originally Posted by Catlady

There is a difference between a store setting polices about how it will conduct its own business and a store attempting to restrict my use of something after I buy it.

This. When I buy an item, I expect that my own personal handling of the item is my own business. My only obligation is to pay. Then upon exiting, it's adios.

[Thasaidon]

Originally Posted by Catlady

Who said they were breaking the law? The issue is whether the consumer can be bound by an agreement that he or she does not specifically agree to.

It goes further than that in the UK. In a number of circumstances even if the customer has technically "agreed" to a supplier's T & Cs they are not valid and cannot be legally enforced.

e.g. !. if the T & Cs are inside a shrink wrapped product and cannot be read before purchase.

2. A carparking company printed its T & C's on the back of the tickets it issued. It was held in court that they could not be enforced because the customer could only read them after paying for the ticket.

3. Where they are the supplier's standard T & Cs and contain clauses the court thinks are "unfair" or attempt to limit or abrogate the customer's statutory rights.