Secondhand ebooks?

[Harper Kingsley]

Originally Posted by danskmacabre

@ Harper Kingsley I've given away 100s of pbooks over the years wayyy before ebooks were around?
Was I somehow not compensating the author because of that?
I didn't hear anyone complaining when I gave pbooks away?

A print book is a physical object that can receive a bent cover or torn pages. An ebook is solely digital and never shows any signs of wear and tear; thus, it is always like new.

So if cops busted into your house and confiscated all of your stuff within the the purview of a search warrant, if they wanted to give you a hard time, finding a hard drive full of ebooks and movies that you did not purchase could result in you getting a trip to jail as they use the time you're locked up to find other reasons to ruin your life. As long as I've never done anything else of an illegal nature, I would not worry about having tons of unpaid for ebooks on my computer. But if I wanted to keep "the Man" from finding another reason to put me away, I probably wouldn't keep the evidence of even minor wrong doing on my hard drive.

Illegal ebooks, movies, and video games could very well be the new tax evasion ploy to arrest criminals in the future. I would not like to be deported to Korea because of something incredibly stupid.

--Sorry, that was mean. I was upset by another commenter and all the talk of piracy, which makes me very sad faced

If you want to give away ebooks, you go ahead and do what you're going to do. An ebook can be copied a million times and still exist in its present form, never changing and never wearing out, unlike a print book or any other physical object. That being said, as a resource that never ceases to exist, it can be given away countless times without ever disappearing and no one ever needs to purchase a new copy, unlike "Aristoi," by Walter Jon Williams which I have purchased 3 times in my life in paperback format. Perhaps he used my hard earned money to buy something nice for his family.

[danskmacabre]

Originally Posted by Harper Kingsley

My point is that ebooks usually cost a lot less than print books due to their rather ephemeral nature.

ebooks are often as expensive or more than pbooks.
I see a lot more sales of REALLY cheap pbooks around than I do of ebooks as well.
The exception to this is indie authors, who sell their ebooks dirt cheap, actually often I buy ebooks from indie/new authors now as the big name authors for ebooks are often very high prices.
Indie authors often don't have pbooks anyway

So it would be wrong to resell one, especially considering they don't receive the wear and tear of print books. Giving the ebook secondhand to someone else wouldn't be as bad, especially if you deleted all copies and knew the other person wouldn't just turn around and hand it off to all their friends. But it's very doubtful that there will ever be a secondhand store for used ebooks because they never get "used." They're always "like new."

pbooks last a lot longer than ebooks imo.
Do you think you'll be able to read your ebpub in 10 - 15 years time what with format changes?
Ever tried to convert an ebook to another format with lots of DRM on it (legally)?

I still have books that were printed in the 60's and probably changed hands several times before they got to me and are perfectly readable and in good condition.
I bet epubs won't be around in 10 years and you'll be expected to rebuy ebooks you've already bought in epub format in years to come .

[danskmacabre]

Originally Posted by Harper Kingsley

A print book is a physical object that can receive a bent cover or torn pages. An ebook is solely digital and never shows any signs of wear and tear; thus, it is always like new.

I already answered this point, but you posted again before I finished my post.
But to briefly go over it again. pbooks last longer than ebooks.
epubs won't be around in years to come and it's unlikely the place you bought your (DRM'd) epubs will allow you to legally convert them to another format.

So if cops busted into your house and confiscated all of your stuff within the the purview of a search warrant, if they wanted to give you a hard time, finding a hard drive full of ebooks and movies that you did not purchase could result in you getting a trip to jail as they use the time you're locked up to find other reasons to ruin your life. As long as I've never done anything else of an illegal nature, I would not worry about having tons of unpaid for ebooks on my computer. But if I wanted to keep "the Man" from finding another reason to put me away, I probably wouldn't keep the evidence of even minor wrong doing on my hard drive.
Illegal ebooks, movies, and video games could very well be the new tax evasion ploy to arrest criminals in the future. I would not like to be deported to Korea because of something incredibly stupid.
--Sorry, that was mean. I was upset by another commenter and all the talk of piracy, which makes me very sad faced
If you want to give away ebooks, you go ahead and do what you're going to do. An ebook can be copied a million times and still exist in its present form, never changing and never wearing out, unlike a print book or any other physical object. That being said, as a resource that never ceases to exist, it can be given away countless times without ever disappearing and no one ever needs to purchase a new copy, unlike "Aristoi," by Walter Jon Williams which I have purchased 3 times in my life in paperback format. Perhaps he used my hard earned money to buy something nice for his family.

I DO actually buy ALL my ebooks, so don't assume that I don't please. I tend to buy indie authors as their books a re a LOT cheaper and I don;t mind supporting them.
I don't pass on my ebooks to other people as I keep all of them on my ereader.
This is a discussion about that it SHOULD be legal to pass on ebooks, not that I DO, so take it easy..

[Harper Kingsley]

Originally Posted by danskmacabre

ebooks are often as expensive or more than pbooks.
I see a lot more sales of REALLY cheap pbooks around than I do of ebooks as well.
The exception to this is indie authors, who sell their ebooks dirt cheap, actually often I buy ebooks from indie/new authors now as the big name authors for ebooks are often very high prices.
Indie authors often don't have pbooks anyway

Well, I personally get very sad when I Google my name and find out that people are downloading my books all over the Internet. Anyone can say that books should be free and I don't deserve compensation for my work because it's not really work, it's just words on a page, but I do like to feed my kids and I would really like to be out of debt someday.

It's just me taking care of myself, I don't really have anyone else to turn to. That being said, I love to read and I love the idea that people are reading things I've written. I know that I'm not the only person in dire financial straits, so I try to keep my prices at an affordable range. And yes, I am arranging for paperbacks to be available, though I really hate formatting PDFs

I don't DRM my books because I know what a hassle it can be trying to read one with a big ol' security mechanism on it, but the way things are going I'm thinking about doing it to any I publish on Amazon in the future. Why? Because people buy books, copy them, then return them. Then five minutes later the book is on some torrent site. Lame.

pbooks last a lot longer than ebooks imo.
Do you think you'll be able to read your ebpub in 10 - 15 years time what with format changes?
Ever tried to convert an ebook to another format with lots of DRM on it (legally)?

I highly doubt Amazon is going out of business in the next couple of years, and with the availability of programs like Calibre, you can change the format of an ebook to whatever reader you have. So there's a good chance that in the future you will never have to repurchase any ebook as long as you have a backup copy.

I have rebs I turns into lrfs that I turned into epubs and then into mobis, and they're still perfectly readable five years later. Anachronistic ereaders are no longer the hardship they used to be because technology has moved past that point.

I have a collection of original Andre Norton paperbacks that even though they've only been lightly read, just the passage of time has yellowed the pages and soon they'll be falling apart.

[plib]

Originally Posted by Harper Kingsley

Wow, that's mean. Perhaps I misspoke, but that's no reason to call me stupid

My point is that ebooks usually cost a lot less than print books due to their rather ephemeral nature. So it would be wrong to resell one, especially considering they don't receive the wear and tear of print books. Giving the ebook secondhand to someone else wouldn't be as bad, especially if you deleted all copies and knew the other person wouldn't just turn around and hand it off to all their friends. But it's very doubtful that there will ever be a secondhand store for used ebooks because they never get "used." They're always "like new."

I didn't say you're stupid, for all I know you're very bright. But I'm afraid some of the ideas you're espousing are seriously stupid.

[danskmacabre]

Originally Posted by Harper Kingsley

Well, I personally get very sad when I Google my name and find out that people are downloading my books all over the Internet. Anyone can say that books should be free and I don't deserve compensation for my work because it's not really work, it's just words on a page, but I do like to feed my kids and I would really like to be out of debt someday.

It's just me taking care of myself, I don't really have anyone else to turn to. That being said, I love to read and I love the idea that people are reading things I've written. I know that I'm not the only person in dire financial straits, so I try to keep my prices at an affordable range. And yes, I am arranging for paperbacks to be available, though I really hate formatting PDFs

I don't DRM my books because I know what a hassle it can be trying to read one with a big ol' security mechanism on it, but the way things are going I'm thinking about doing it to any I publish on Amazon in the future. Why? Because people buy books, copy them, then return them. Then five minutes later the book is on some torrent site. Lame.

Well it sucks that your books are getting pirated, but really whatever format books are in, ebooks, pbooks whatever. If people want to pirate a book they WILL pirate them and can.

The Harry potter books when released in pbook format got scanned and converted to epubs by pirates within days of release, so even just publishing pbooks is no defense.
I like to compensate authors for books I read and I do (I buy all my books), so we have no disagreement on these points.

I highly doubt Amazon is going out of business in the next couple of years, and with the availability of programs like Calibre, you can change the format of an ebook to whatever reader you have. So there's a good chance that in the future you will never have to repurchase any ebook as long as you have a backup copy.

I have rebs I turns into lrfs that I turned into epubs and then into mobis, and they're still perfectly readable five years later. Anachronistic ereaders are no longer the hardship they used to be because technology has moved past that point.

if you used calibre and and converted amazon books and whatever other formats that use DRM, then you must have cracked the DRM, which is illegal in many countries. Which means you have broken the law and could be seen as an act of piracy.

I have a collection of original Andre Norton paperbacks that even though they've only been lightly read, just the passage of time has yellowed the pages and soon they'll be falling apart.

Well like I said I take care of my books and I have lots of quite old books (going back 40+ years) which are doing just fine.
I can't speak for the book you say is falling apart, but with good care a pbook will last for years.
What happens if the HDD you have your ebooks stored on fails? (and eventually it will)..
You may well be able to redownload it assuming the company you bought it from i still around and what with the amount of large companies going out of business there's no guarantee amazon will be around in years to come for you to re-download your ebooks.

[Harper Kingsley]

@danskmacabre: Sorry if I sounded like a jerk. I'd just read that whole Terry Goodkind thread. I didn't mean to make it sound like I was accusing you personally of pirating books. My point was that if someone had committed some other crime and were to have secondhand ebooks on their hard drive, it's not such a stretch that the DA might use them as a reason to give someone grief.

I've never said that changing the format of a purchased DRM'd ebook for personal use was a big crime, though I've never done it. But to change the format and then give the book to someone else, well, that's shady and could see someone getting in trouble for it. You'd basically have to take off any DRM to be able to hand say a Kindle book off to someone else because they're tied to your Amazon account.

BTW, I used to think the spread of my books was good advertising and at least one person had to buy it for all those copies to exist, but that was before I realized how sneaky some people are. They buy an ebook on Amazon, copy it, then return it for a refund. At least with a paperback it's time intensive to scan it and reformat it, plus there's something nice about the feel and smell of paper

[Miss]

Originally Posted by Harper Kingsley

Well, I personally get very sad when I Google my name and find out that people are downloading my books all over the Internet. Anyone can say that books should be free and I don't deserve compensation for my work because it's not really work, it's just words on a page, but I do like to feed my kids and I would really like to be out of debt someday.

I think you may have misunderstood what this discussion is about. No one is talking about pirating books in this thread; we're talking about transferring a *single* copy of an ebook someone has purchased to another person and then deleting all the copies they own of it. Just like with a pbook, the author received their payment with the initial purchase, and just like with a pbook, that purchase has now transfered from one owner to another owner, and the original owner no longer has the work. So what has been proposed is a hand-off operating in exactly the same manner as it would with a pbook, which no one raises concerns about the authors not receiving compensation for.

Your only rebuttle has been that ebooks don't wear out like pbooks, therefore the author is not receiving compensation when ownership of an ebook is transferred. Which doesn't fully make sense to me in light of the proposed transfer which would happen just like a pbook. But now you've begun talking about piracy, where people give away multiple copies of your book for free. Now that certainly cheats authors of their due, and it makes sense that would upset you. But that's not what we're talking about in this thread.

[danskmacabre]

Originally Posted by Harper Kingsley

My point was that if someone had committed some other crime and were to have secondhand ebooks on their hard drive, it's not such a stretch that the DA might use them as a reason to give someone grief.

That's the risk people take when committing crimes, minor or major. You risk getting caught and punished. That's just life.

I've never said that changing the format of a purchased DRM'd ebook for personal use was a big crime, though I've never done it.

Seeing as you said that you can extend the life of an ebook by converting it, you must be considering it as an option.
The bottom line is it's illegal to crack DRM on ebooks. I don't personally like drm on ebooks, it's irritating, so hopefully one day there will be a better system in place.

But to change the format and then give the book to someone else, well, that's shady and could see someone getting in trouble for it. You'd basically have to take off any DRM to be able to hand say a Kindle book off to someone else because they're tied to your Amazon account.

That's correct, so this goes back to my original argument, you only have your kindle books for SURE as long as amazon exists and you can't LEGALLY convert it to other formats.

BTW, I used to think the spread of my books was good advertising and at least one person had to buy it for all those copies to exist, but that was before I realized how sneaky some people are. They buy an ebook on Amazon, copy it, then return it for a refund. At least with a paperback it's time intensive to scan it and reformat it, plus there's something nice about the feel and smell of paper

Having no experience of amazon ebooks I can't speak for this sort of practice. seems a bit weird you can return an ebook when it could be read within hours and returned. But there will always be nefarious people about doing this sort of thing whatever the scam is.

At the end of the day, there's advantages to pbooks over ebooks and the other way around as well.
For me I have some books in a pbook format (although I'm slowly replacing them with ebooks) and new stuff is generally ebooks.
I generally stick with indie authors as they are less likely to have drm on them, so I can put them on whatever device I want.
When the big publishers go the way of Tor and publish books without DRM, I'll start buying their books as well sometime.
I have a solid backups procedure as well, so there's a very low risk of me actually losing my ebooks.
I intend to pay for my books, I can't speak for others who choose not to and can't really do anything about that either.

[Harper Kingsley]

@Miss: Sorry it got so OT. As I said at the beginning, a person-to-person transfer probably isn't a big deal. Currently, if a book is DRM'd for your personal use, unless you share an account with someone, you'd have to strip the DRM to be able to pass the book on to the other person.

Usually when you sign up to buy ebooks from Amazon or B&N or whatever, somewhere on the site there's a rider in there saying the books are for your personal use and the rights cannot be transferred blah blah blah. It might not say it on the books themselves depending on how the copyright is worded, but wherever you purchased the book usually has a little clicky tag or something you agreed to either at the time of purchase or when you signed up.

[danskmacabre]

yes going back to the original discussion. I would like to be able to legally pass on ebooks (I.E. give to someone else and delete my copy) that I no no longer want.

I appreciate that people copy ebooks and pass them around, but I can't stop them doing that.

[Miss]

Originally Posted by Harper Kingsley

As I said at the beginning, a person-to-person transfer probably isn't a big deal. Currently, if a book is DRM'd for your personal use, unless you share an account with someone, you'd have to strip the DRM to be able to pass the book on to the other person.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, that shouldn't be necessary on an in-person (i.e. physically straight from my computer) transfer. From your profile it looks like you only own a Kindle so I can see how that possibility might not occur to you. Basically, for independant ereaders you first download an ebook to your computer, and then transfer it via a cable from your computer to your ereading device. You may do this as many times with as many of your own devices as you wish (provided they aren't a Kindle or a Nook or something) without breaking the DRM.

Therefore I see no reason why I could not substitute another person's ereader for my own device, attach it to my computer, and transfer the ebook just like with my own device(s) while keeping the DRM intact.

The original reason I created this thread to ask the question was actually because I had purchased some ebooks, then realized I may want to purchase an entire set which included some of the ebooks I had already purchased. Thus I would have two legally purchased copies of the same book, paying the entire price for both of them. If not sell them I would at least like to be able to give them away to a friend or relative who wants them because it seems such a waste not to. I wouldn't be cheating the authors out of any of their fair share, just that if I've purchased two copies, I'd like to be able to give one away - ideally, resell it, but if not that at the very least gift it to someone else to enjoy.

I'm tired of laws interfering with my ethical attempts to live life by common sense.

[danskmacabre]

Originally Posted by Miss

The original reason I created this thread to ask the question was actually because I had purchased some ebooks, then realized I may want to purchase an entire set which included some of the ebooks I had already purchased. Thus I would have two legally purchased copies of the same book, paying the entire price for both of them. If not sell them I would at least like to be able to give them away to a friend or relative who wants them because it seems such a waste not to. I wouldn't be cheating the authors out of any of their fair share, just that if I've purchased two copies, I'd like to be able to give one away - ideally, resell it, but if not that at the very least gift it to someone else to enjoy.

I'm tired of laws interfering with my ethical attempts to live life by common sense.

Yes it does suck and it would be nice to be able to legally do this.

If I had 2 copies of an ebook I purchased, I would probably clean it so all watermarking is removed and then give it away and delete my extra copy on my systems. But I would only do this with someone I knew I could trust not to distribute it.

The problem with this of course is that the ebook you give away is now completely out of your control could be copied out 100s of times very easily.
What happens if the person you give an ebook to you 100% trust has their ereader stolen or their PC stolen?

If the current DRM systems out there allowed you to pass on an ebook I could see a better argument for putting up with drm or some form of DRM anyway.

[Harper Kingsley]

@Miss: I've had a Jetbook, an Ebookwise, a Sony Reader, and I've only recently turned to Kindle since I received it as a gift. If you purchased an ebook from someplace like Smashwords, ARe or Omni, or any number of smaller places, they offer ebooks in multi-formats and usually without DRM. That being the case, if you were to pick up a copy in mobi or a copy in epub or whatever, I honestly don't see what the big deal is if you give it to your friend and that friend slips you a few dollar in compensation. Currently there's no place to legally sell used ebooks, though some people try on Ebay or something until they get in trouble.

If you purchased your books at Amazon or B&N or any other place that has a proprietary format (like .azw) and that registers whatever ebook directly to your device, you might first have to strip any DRM off the book. In which case, there is a very slim possibility that you can get in trouble. But unless you've done any kind of illegal stuff that might draw attention to you, there's not much to worry about. Or you could share your account with your friend or whoever, only they're able to see whatever past books you've purchased and they're able to use your One-Click settings to order other books.

[DarkScribe]

If you own it you can do as you please with it. If you give it away but don't delete your original copy then you are pirating. If you delete it then there is no problem. It can only be an honour system as there is no way of enforcing compliance.