"fan fiction "......

[spindlegirl]

Originally Posted by BeccaPrice

You're a nicer person than I am, spindlegirl. His response struck me as a classical "not-pology" - he wasn't sorry that he traduced your parenting, he was sorry that you were insulted.

Aww, well, true, it did sound that way, but I spelled out my side of things, and I'm not good at holding a grudge. I can't demand more than people are willing to offer. I have received some very nice unexpected support from people both in this thread and in PMs too. I appreciate that.

Thanks.

[spindlegirl]

Originally Posted by cfrizz

Right on the money Kate!

So by all means let her join, just make sure she utilizes a certain feature on here so that she doesn't get attacked & needlessly insulted by people who think they are the arbitors of all that right. She will certainly get a warm welcome & big thank you from me!

So all you fanfic writers on here keep on writing & I will keep on reading.

How sweet. I will see what she decides. She's read the boards here as a guest before and downloaded some of the excellently edited books onto her e-reader. She's kind of obsessed with wattpad these days, too.

I feel good about encouraging her in her stories. She gets good feedback from other writers and is finding her niche. It's' really nice!

[khalleron]

Let's play a game - OK or not OK?:

1) Taking a picture of a trademarked product you bought and using that picture as your avatar

2) Drawing a picture of a trademarked product that you bought and posting it on DeviantArt

3) Drawing a picture of Luke Skywalker swordfighting Errol Flynn (as Robin Hood) and posting it on DeviantArt
3a) you own Luke Skywalker and Robin Hood action figures
3b) you don't own said action figures

4) Writing a story in which Luke Skywalker battles Robin Hood and posting it on FanFiction.net

5) posting a story in which a young boy goes back in time and pals around with Robin Hood

6) posting a story in which a young boy is transported to a far away galaxy where he has adventures with Lucas Cielo and Handy Lonely, winning the hand of the lovely princess Letitia

[spindlegirl]

Originally Posted by khalleron

Let's play a game - OK or not OK?:

1) Taking a picture of a trademarked product you bought and using that picture as your avatar

2) Drawing a picture of a trademarked product that you bought and posting it on DeviantArt

3) Drawing a picture of Luke Skywalker swordfighting Errol Flynn (as Robin Hood) and posting it on DeviantArt
3a) you own Luke Skywalker and Robin Hood action figures
3b) you don't own said action figures

4) Writing a story in which Luke Skywalker battles Robin Hood and posting it on FanFiction.net

5) posting a story in which a young boy goes back in time and pals around with Robin Hood

6) posting a story in which a young boy is transported to a far away galaxy where he has adventures with Lucas Cielo and Handy Lonely, winning the hand of the lovely princess Letitia

How about another option. Writing a trilogy based on Twilight and have it be a NYT bestseller for several months straight. (for profit)

[Harper Kingsley]

Originally Posted by spindlegirl

How about another option. Writing a trilogy based on Twilight and have it be a NYT bestseller for several months straight. (for profit)

Oh noes, you mentioned the horrors!

I firmly believe that fanfic is fanfic and should not be for profit. So to take your fanfic story, rework some stuff and sell it... well, that just seems kind of skeavy to me, but I can get past that. But my problem with that particular trilogy -- 50 Shades Of Which We Do Not Speak -- is that it feels as though the whole reason it got famous was because it was a fanfic. They used it as a marketing ploy, and it worked in this particular case, but I'm still waiting for litigation to start in the future.

You can rework your fanfic into an original story, but to use the fact that it began as a fanfic to gain attention... Seems like very dangerous ground to me.

[spindlegirl]

I agree....
As long as it's for fun and the original source is credited, and not for sale, it's really just a "for fun" thing.

My children told verbal mashups of "The Dread Pirate Roberts meets Darth Vader" (for example) that made their friends crack up.

[DrNefario]

Originally Posted by WritePR

I don't know how he or anyone else can claim he wasn't attacking or insulting anyone.

Well, I claim he wasn't attacking or insulting anyone. It's a fairly straightforward expression of the strictest view of copyright. How else would you put it? The only real term we have for a violator of copyright is "pirate", which is surely worse (except that it has become massively devalued by being used to mean copyright-violator.)

I certainly expect the moderators here to take the strict position.

Defend against the argument, don't shoot the messenger.

Spindlegirl had edited out her responses by the time I saw that exchange, so I didn't really follow it, but it seemed that it hadn't even occurred to her that it might be illegal. Why is it wrong to suggest that it might be? (It does suggest to me that the law is inadequate, and doesn't really square with a reasonable sense of moral judgement, but that's an issue of changing or clarifying the law, not what the law is.)

Anyway, that's pretty well off-topic. I just thought I needed to say that I didn't agree with the critical voices.

[spindlegirl]

The quote about leeches and parasites wasn't addressing any one particular person, and to that I agree, it was a general opinion.

I quoted in post 222 the actual personal, directed at me, quote that bothered me, and compared it to what I see written in the FAQ.

Other people in this thread, have written that they encourage their children to write fan fiction (or write it themselves), and I didn't see them being personally responded to using emoticons and insinuations. If he personally responds to everyone else individually in the same manner, and I somehow missed that, then I may agree.

I expect moderators to be so far removed from engaging in this kind of thing that there's absolutely no room for "grey area" of misinterpretation. But several people recognized it and had messaged me about it before I had even reacted to it, too.

At any rate, he apologized and I'm not nursing any more feelings over it - it's over with.

I feel GOOD about my having encouraged my daughter to get her feet wet in writing on a site designed for fan fiction. I don't feel in the slightest that it is wrong.

[citac]

You can argue that that wasn't an attack, but it was most certainly an insult. Just because it is not insulting to you, does not mean it's the same for everyone else. I certainly don't appreciate being called a leech, a bloodsucker and a parasite for engaging in creating something for my fandom (I am predominately a fanartist, but I use graphics to tell a story so you might argue that it's an image based storytelling).

Originally Posted by DrNefario

Well, I claim he wasn't attacking or insulting anyone. It's a fairly straightforward expression of the strictest view of copyright. How else would you put it? The only real term we have for a violator of copyright is "pirate", which is surely worse (except that it has become massively devalued by being used to mean copyright-violator.)

I certainly expect the moderators here to take the strict position.

Defend against the argument, don't shoot the messenger.

Spindlegirl had edited out her responses by the time I saw that exchange, so I didn't really follow it, but it seemed that it hadn't even occurred to her that it might be illegal. Why is it wrong to suggest that it might be? (It does suggest to me that the law is inadequate, and doesn't really square with a reasonable sense of moral judgement, but that's an issue of changing or clarifying the law, not what the law is.)

Anyway, that's pretty well off-topic. I just thought I needed to say that I didn't agree with the critical voices.

Or if you want a more explicit example of an insult that was not meant as such, but was committed and perceived as an insult, here's one from my experience of learning English as a foreign language (with apologies to anyone who might some terms insulting):

When we were children and starting to learn English, we were taught that the proper term for an African man or a man of African descent was Negro, and Negress for a woman. So our textbooks had examples such as, "The Negress works very hard. She is washing clothes in the river, and later she will be cooking lunch for her mistress." (where "mistress" meant "employer", not "owner") with many illustrations showing the actions. Years later, I had a chance to speak to some African-Americans, and somehow, the terminology we were taught in school came up. They said it was very insulting to hear such terms applied to them but that they would not take offense because they understood there was no malice behind my words. Even though my insult wasn't deliberate, it was still an insult, and they were clearly hurt by it.

He deliberately called fanfiction writers leeches and parasites. It saddens me that you think this kind of language is a straightforward description of many varied persons who engage in writing fanfiction (but mostly women - fandom is mostly a female space) and don't know how else one would express their disagreement with the view that this is not an illegal activity.

[spindlegirl]

Out of curiosity, I've clicked on some fan stories related to books and movies I've never read nor seen.

So many of those stories assume that the reader is already very familiar with the book or tv show in question, that unless the person has already seen them, they don't "get" the story.

For stories related to books or movies I have seen, I must admit I've seen very little relationship to the original book or movie except the title and a couple of characters.

I haven't use the calibre plugins for fan fiction yet. But I do notice that there is no "apprentice" needed for using them, so that is good for me if I am going to start reading more fan fiction. It tells me that it is at least legal to read it

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by spindlegirl

Out of curiosity, I've clicked on some fan stories related to books and movies I've never read nor seen.

So many of those stories assume that the reader is already very familiar with the book or tv show in question, that unless the person has already seen them, they don't "get" the story.

There's a collection on AO3 called "No Canon Required" that's supposed to be for fic that can be enjoyed without knowing the source material. I'm not sure how true that is--don't know if the Sherlock Holmes fanfic will really make sense if one's never heard of Holmes--but it should at least be enjoyable without knowing more than the very basics of who the characters are.

There's another collection, "Five Minute Fandoms," for fics about fandoms that can be picked up quickly--a single song, or a TV commercial, or a painting. (Or similar. And they're not picky about the exact five-minute line; it's just that original source material should be shorter than a single sitcom episode.)

[spindlegirl]

I received a very kind and sincere apology in PM from HarryT.

I am finding the topic of fan fiction interesting so let's please get back to that.

I also want to apologize for any unnecessary drama that may have sprouted from this.

Cheers to all
Spindlegirl.

[Yapyap]

Originally Posted by DrNefario

Well, I claim he wasn't attacking or insulting anyone. It's a fairly straightforward expression of the strictest view of copyright. How else would you put it? The only real term we have for a violator of copyright is "pirate", which is surely worse (except that it has become massively devalued by being used to mean copyright-violator.)

Considering his statement was general and all-encompassing, not bothering to differentiate between people writing fanfic for copyrighted universes where the rights holder doesn't allow it, copyrighted universes where the rights holder allows and/or encourages it, and universes in public domain, I'd say he managed to insult a LOT of people who haven't engaged in anything even remotely illegal or infringing on anyone's copyright.

And considering his statement implied that everyone who "feeds" off other people's work instead of creating their own worlds is a leech and parasite and blood-sucker, it's pretty offensive also to anyone writing legal, approved, published fanfiction in its widest sense (tie-in novels, sequels to or alternative takes on public domain works, and so on - all that is, in its essence, the same thing as fanfiction after all, just that it's done for personal gain, not (just) out of love or interest in the source material).

By that statement, people like Laurie R. King (Mary Russell novels) and Jean Rhys (Wide Sargasso Sea), never mind Seth Grahame-Smith (Pride and Prejudice and Zombies) are also nothing but leeches, parasites and blood-suckers, as they, too, "feed off" someone else's work. And let's not even get to almost the entire TV and film industry that lives on adaptations of other people's work instead of coming up with something completely original!

[khalleron]

Originally Posted by Yapyap

Considering his statement was general and all-encompassing, not bothering to differentiate between people writing fanfic for copyrighted universes where the rights holder doesn't allow it, copyrighted universes where the rights holder allows and/or encourages it, and universes in public domain, I'd say he managed to insult a LOT of people who haven't engaged in anything even remotely illegal or infringing on anyone's copyright.

And considering his statement implied that everyone who "feeds" off other people's work instead of creating their own worlds is a leech and parasite and blood-sucker, it's pretty offensive also to anyone writing legal, approved, published fanfiction in its widest sense (tie-in novels, sequels to or alternative takes on public domain works, and so on - all that is, in its essence, the same thing as fanfiction after all, just that it's done for personal gain, not (just) out of love or interest in the source material).

By that statement, people like Laurie R. King (Mary Russell novels) and Jean Rhys (Wide Sargasso Sea), never mind Seth Grahame-Smith (Pride and Prejudice and Zombies) are also nothing but leeches, parasites and blood-suckers, as they, too, "feed off" someone else's work. And let's not even get to almost the entire TV and film industry that lives on adaptations of other people's work instead of coming up with something completely original!

Especially since there's no such thing as originality anyway - all stories have been told already, time and again. The only things writers can really change are the setting, the time, and the POV. And genre fic is even restricted as to aspects of those.

Does a software designer have to go back to 1s and 0s in order not to 'infringe' on others' work? Doesn't everyone who creates *anything* 'leech' off the work of others?

All culture is cooperative. All technology is cooperative. Nothing human is accomplished in any endeavor without the help of others.

[citac]

I was wondering, what's Harry's stance on RPF - Real Person Fiction? Real persons are not copyrighted, so that type of fanfic cannot be illegal or infringing, yes? Please correct me if I'm wrong.