"fan fiction "......

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by DrNefario

I didn't think Harry's posts were insulting at all. It's a pretty strong statement of a position, but that's all it is. There are no personal attacks, unlike the responses to Harry's posts.

There's a difference between "I think this is illegal" and attacking someone's parenting decisions based on one's own opinions of legality.

This is especially troubling in the light of Harry's regular suggestions that people seek out Apprentice Alf for their drm-stripping needs... he *knows* that distributing DRM-stripping tools is illegal, but he supports that activity, because he believes it's non-harmful and not directly supportive of piracy or other infringing activities.

He uses a photo of a trademarked, copyrighted object for his own userpic, believing that his use is non-harmful and supportive of the creators' rights... and I agree with that, but don't see how using a character description in an original story is somehow more infringing than using a photo of someone else's work without permission.

In the case of fanfic, he's decided it's illegal--and therefore should *not* be encouraged, regardless of the good that comes from it, or the ethics of the laws he believes are being broken. And he's certainly within his rights to believe that's somehow different, and conclude that encouraging fanfic is illegal while sending people to Apprentice Alf is not. I don't now how he arrived at that decision, but I've split finer hairs in philosophical and legal arguments; there's nothing hypocritical about believing one is acceptable and the other is not.

That, in itself, is not an insulting belief. But implying someone is guilty of bad parenting for not reaching the same conclusions, is insulting.

There is an awful lot of defensiveness in this thread, including some convoluted manoeuvres to try to claim fan fiction is completely legit.

Not completely, just mostly. I noted that there've been no counter-arguments pointing out the fanfics they believe are infringing, but rather bland statements claiming an entire genre is infringing, based on someone's labeling it "fanfic," rather than the actual contents of the stories.

Maybe they'd work in court, but they seem to open the door for a number of less innocent things if they do.

Fanfic as a gateway drug to... what? Writing unauthorized sequels and attempting to publish them?

What "less innocent" things would be endorsed by formal recognition of the legality of fanfic?

[ficbot]

I think that for me, the grey area is profit. Sharing just for fun is different to me than sharing for profit. To put another example into the mix, I have written a series of original stories that I use when I am teaching. One of them features the names of various teachers at my school. I have shared these stories on an on-line community of teachers who use the same teaching program as me, and I have even suggested that before they print them out, they can feel free to modify the names of the teacher characters to reflect people in their own actual school. I have heard afterward that several people did this; one of them changed a few other aspects as well (the main character, a dog, eats various foods during the story; one of them is a food they don't eat where she lives, so she changed it) and I said great, fine, glad you are using an enjoying. But of that person then took her changed version and tried to publish it for money, I'd be mad! There is a sort of unofficial code for these sorts of things which makes that unlikely (teachers respect that others will share for their benefit and in return someday they can reciprocate, and it's a great circle of resource pooling) but still, I suppose there is the possibility. And if that happened, I would take what steps I could.

[whitearrow]

Originally Posted by HarryT

The area in which we disagree, WritePR, is that of asking permission. I totally accept that fan fiction is harmless in the majority of cases, but it seems very wrong to me not to ask the permission of the right-holder. It's like, say, trespass. I'm probably not doing any harm if I walk across your land, but you probably wouldn't like me to do so without asking you for permission to do so in advance.

Not only, as Mary said, does this run against what's considered respectful fan behavior, but in the cases of nearly all non-book media properties, it's breathtakingly impractical.

[Yapyap]

Of course, people taking their previously-posted fanfic and then publishing it for profit (after doing a quick find-and-replace on character names) seems to be completely legal, unlike the grey area of posting non-profit fanfic free on the Internet... so even that is not really an argument against fanfic.

After all, there is no way to stop people from writing a story as fanfic, find-and-replacing all the names and then publishing it - it only requires for the story itself to be sufficiently original and different from the source material. If the person who wrote the story as fanfic and then reconsiders and replaces the names and publishes it as original fiction, skipping the step of posting it on a fanfic archive first, it's not like anyone would even know it was born as fanfic (and it's a certainty that plenty of perfectly fine published novels have their origins in someone else's world).

I have recently come across cases of people selling their Star Trek or Stargate fanfic as self-published novels. This does not sit well with me and is against what I personally believe to be ethical. It would be interesting to see if anything is done about that; big studios would certainly have the means for a proper lawsuit. I don't think there's been a single case of even for-profit fanfic going to court, though (the Harry Potter Lexicon is a different case, not having anything to do with fanfic but being pretty much entirely a compendium of direct quotes and material from the Harry Potter books).

The overwhelming majority of people involved with fanfic in the various fandom communities I've been part of over the years don't consider it a good idea to profit from fanfic; there is the occasional case of people donating to keep an archive running, using ads to keep archives running, and participating in fandom auctions for charity causes (in which the author of a fanfic never profits from her/his work), but to many, even that is too much of a grey area to feel morally comfortable with. "Not for profit" is a major rule and belief for most fans involved with fanfic.

ETA: Actually, I guess the case against The Wind Done Gone does probably qualify as an example of the rights holders suing the publisher of what could be considered as a for-profit fanfic. Of course, that ended with a settlement and the book being published (under the "parody" clause), so... I'm not sure exactly how many conclusions one can draw from that, except to say that these aren't completely clear-cut matters?

[QuantumIguana]

I have recently come across cases of people selling their Star Trek or Stargate fanfic as self-published novels. This does not sit well with me and is against what I personally believe to be ethical. It would be interesting to see if anything is done about that; big studios would certainly have the means for a proper lawsuit. I don't think there's been a single case of even for-profit fanfic going to court, though (the Harry Potter Lexicon is a different case, not having anything to do with fanfic but being pretty much entirely a compendium of direct quotes and material from the Harry Potter books).

I haven't seen that. I have seen Stargate novels on Smashwords, but they had a disclaimer "An original publication of Fandemonium Ltd, produced under license from MGM Consumer Products", so they aren't fanfic. There are books like "The Nitpicker's Guide to Star Trek", which don't need permission.

[Yapyap]

Originally Posted by QuantumIguana

I haven't seen that. I have seen Stargate novels on Smashwords, but they had a disclaimer "An original publication of Fandemonium Ltd, produced under license from MGM Consumer Products", so they aren't fanfic. There are books like "The Nitpicker's Guide to Star Trek", which don't need permission.

I'm talking about actual novels - definitely not licensed. I'm not sure whether I'm allowed to link to a Stargate example here (still on Amazon; a Star Trek book I came across some months ago seems to be gone, though), as it, well, may be a case of copyright infringement, but part of the description is this (am I infringing when copy-pasting a partial description of the book from Amazon? if I am, I will delete):

Spoiler:

"This large 9x6 350 page illustrated softcover book wraps up the 3 Stargate series (SG-1, Atlantis, Universe), brings a wonderful closure for all Stargate fans, ties the knot on lots of loose ends, and starts a new adventure that focuses on twin 18yo girls and their pet dragon. Stargate SG-1, Universe and Atlantis are merged into the new beginning we have all been waiting for. Some of the adventures are on our home planet, and Earth will never be the same. We bring the battles with the Goa'uld, the Wraith, the Lucian Alliance, the Drones and Replicators to a conclusion, and it's about dam time."

[QuantumIguana]

Originally Posted by Yapyap

I'm talking about actual novels - definitely not licensed. I'm not sure whether I'm allowed to link to a Stargate example here (still on Amazon; a Star Trek book I came across some months ago seems to be gone, though), as it, well, may be a case of copyright infringement, but part of the description is this (am I infringing when copy-pasting a partial description of the book from Amazon? if I am, I will delete):

I'm talking about actual novels as well, published on Smashwords, and yes, they were licensed. There are a number of Stargate novels published on Smashwords, and they were licensed.

OK, I looked up the book that you referenced, and that is over the line of what most people would consider acceptable for fan fiction. Just looking at the cover though, at least no one could mistake this for an authorized Stargate book.

[Yapyap]

Originally Posted by QuantumIguana

I'm talking about actual novels as well, published on Smashwords, and yes, they were licensed. There are a number of Stargate novels published on Smashwords, and they were licensed.

That may well be true; I'm pretty sure the one I'm talking about isn't, though.

[WritePR]

Originally Posted by Billi

Maybe you're just using another currency? Not money, but feedback or praise or criticism or appreciation or fame...???

(Not that anything would be wrong with this, just for the sake of honesty)

I was talking about financially.

[WritePR]

Originally Posted by khalleron

Let her join, just be sure she blocks HarryT - he's the only one calling us blood-suckers and accusing you of contributing to your daughter's delinquency.

Seriously, Harry? 'No insult was intended'? What do you say to people when you *do* want to insult them? I shudder to think.

Between what he said to Spindlegirl and this:

Originally Posted by HarryT
Because the fan fiction writer is a leech, a parasite, a blood-sucker, feeding from the creativity of someone else. If somebody wants to be an author, let them create their own worlds, not steal somebody else's.

I don't know how he or anyone else can claim he wasn't attacking or insulting anyone.

[plib]

Originally Posted by HarryT

The area in which we disagree, WritePR, is that of asking permission. I totally accept that fan fiction is harmless in the majority of cases, but it seems very wrong to me not to ask the permission of the right-holder. It's like, say, trespass. I'm probably not doing any harm if I walk across your land, but you probably wouldn't like me to do so without asking you for permission to do so in advance.

As a Brit you should be familiar with the Ramblers Charity, one of whose goals is to reclaim public rights of way over land which may have been denied by the current owners. Should they ask for the owner's permission also? In many cases the land owners not only don't like the walking ramblers do, and call it trespass, but they've actively opposed it. And in many cases they've been overruled and the right of way granted.

Blind obedience to some perceived, and in many cases imagined, prohibitions is not the approach everyone takes to life.

[plib]

Originally Posted by spindlegirl

If you work for the PS3 company in any capacity, rest assured that my 18 year old son refuses bootlegs of any games he owns (from his classmates, who proudly torrent everything) and has spent hundreds of dollars of his own money, delaying gratification if necessary, over the years on nintendo, and PS2 games. I hope that puts to rest any "questions" you may have about what I have raised my children to become.

(My daughter also spent her birthday money at Chapters bookSTORE and for years my account at YesAsia for all the J-pop and asian music she owns has burst at the seams)

I don't think you should feel the need to justify yourself, or your children, in any way at all.

Unfortunately, and not for the first time, what has been encountered here is a pattern classically associated with the behaviour of a prig. I'm not sure there's much that can be done to change it. Probably best to rise above it and move on. Hard I know, particularly when it affects your children, but I think anything else is probably fruitless effort. Personal biases, black and white world views and lack of qualified knowledge are hard to overturn.

[spindlegirl]

I agree. He apologized after I confronted head on what was bothering me, and that's pretty much within basic expectations. That's ok enough for me.

[BeccaPrice]

You're a nicer person than I am, spindlegirl. His response struck me as a classical "not-pology" - he wasn't sorry that he traduced your parenting, he was sorry that you were insulted.

[cfrizz]

Originally Posted by khalleron

Let her join, just be sure she blocks HarryT - he's the only one calling us blood-suckers and accusing you of contributing to your daughter's delinquency.

Seriously, Harry? 'No insult was intended'? What do you say to people when you *do* want to insult them? I shudder to think.

Right on the money Kate!

I personally love all fanfic writers they have kept me entertained for years, and some of them have gone on to become published authors of their own work after gaining valuable experience writing fanfics.

So by all means let her join, just make sure she utilizes a certain feature on here so that she doesn't get attacked & needlessly insulted by people who think they are the arbitors of all that right. She will certainly get a warm welcome & big thank you from me!

So all you fanfic writers on here keep on writing & I will keep on reading.