One for the pro-copyright people to think about

mr ploppy · 03-15-2012, 10:10 AM

http://translate.google.co.uk/transl...liotheek.dhtml

Translated into Pidjin Engrish by Google, but you should be able to get the gist. Book publisher rights organisation demands that libraries who read books to children have to pay them a fee to do so.

Can't happen here? (wherever here is for you.)

QuantumIguana · 03-15-2012, 10:26 AM

They aren't making copies, they are just reading. I can't do anything about Belgium's copyright laws, but I would resist this as strongly as possible if it was attempted in the US.

Elfwreck · 03-15-2012, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuantumIguana

They aren't making copies, they are just reading. I can't do anything about Belgium's copyright laws, but I would resist this as strongly as possible if it was attempted in the US.

Copyright in the US includes control of the right "in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and motion pictures and other audiovisual works, to perform the copyrighted work publicly."

Copyrighted plays can't be performed without permission (usually, a license); neither can copyrighted books--and there's no rule that says "public performance" has to mean "acting out with props on a stage." Reading a work aloud for anyone in the public to listen to can easily be interpreted as a "public performance."

The counter-argument is that it's an educational use--that it's not only teaching children often not comfortable with reading (or not able to read) the contents of the book, but the concept that books are good things and worth their interest.

But who'd win in court depends on who has the better lawyers: a public library or a publishing house.

ApK · 03-15-2012, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

But who'd win in court depends on who has the better lawyers

And the judge. I'm always pleased when I hear of a judge throwing out some unjust action by a powerful entity with a comment that amounts to "That's just stupid and wrong, case dismissed."
It happens.

QuantumIguana · 03-15-2012, 10:38 AM

No, only with great difficulty and extensive twisting could reading to children a library be construed as a "performance". A single library probably wouldn't be able to fight a publishing house, but if one library fought and lost, all libraries would lose, so the publishers would be fighting the combined power of libraries.

Rob Lister · 03-15-2012, 10:39 AM

I'm a bit skeptical that Belgium even exists. It could just be one of those made-up nations. Do we have any actual evidence that such a place exists?

But seriously, they're welcome to their own laws. Could it happen here? Unlikely: I wouldn't be for it. This looks like fair use to me.

Could the publisher (or other entity) even take it to court? Where are the damages?

Elfwreck · 03-15-2012, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuantumIguana

No, only with great difficulty and extensive twisting could reading to children a library be construed as a "performance".

Include a recording of a reading on YouTube and it can get thrown in with all the "pirating" that the publishers object to. It's an unauthorized live audiobook! If you want to hear a book read out loud, you're supposed to buy the mp3!

... yeah, it's a stretch. But considering that we had recording companies attempt to sue cellphone companies for the "public performance" of ringtones, I don't think it's at all unlikely to be filed. (That one got resoundingly stomped. However, that one *also* didn't involve public use of the entire song.)

I can only hope it gets a judge who's savvy enough to say "WTF is this? Hell no, you cannot prevent readings at libraries! What kind of monsters ARE your executives, anyway? Why are you even making children's books if you don't want them read to children?"

RainingLemur · 03-15-2012, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Lister

I'm a bit skeptical that Belgium even exists. It could just be one of those made-up nations. Do we have any actual evidence that such a place exists?

Spoiler:

I would hope that reading to kids in a library wouldn't be considered as "public performance." I find that to be incredibly dumb.

ApK · 03-15-2012, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainingLemur

I would hope that reading to kids in a library wouldn't be considered as "public performance." I find that to be incredibly dumb.

It IS a public performance by any imaginable definition of those words.
I can't imagine how you could NOT consider it so.

However, the position that I think most of us take it is that is the epitome of fair use and of overwhelming importance and value to society, and so should obviously be allowed.

Just like copying for personal backup or for use in a classroom is still copying, but it's allowed.

ApK

RainingLemur · 03-15-2012, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApK

It IS a public performance by any imaginable definition of those words.
I can't imagine how you could NOT consider it so.

However, the position that I think most of us take it is that is the epitome of fair use and of overwhelming importance and value to society, and so should be allowed.

Just like copying for personal backup or for use in a classroom is still copying, but it's allowed.

ApK

I should have added something along the lines of "not in the sense of requiring a license to do so." Yes, I realize it's a "public" performance.

Keroberos · 03-15-2012, 10:56 AM

Could it happen here in the U.S.? Unfortunately it already is.

Rob Lister · 03-15-2012, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApK

It IS a public performance by any imaginable definition of those words.
I can't imagine how you could NOT consider it so.

I don't think 'reading' necessarily rises to the level of 'performance' but, lets carry that to its logical conclusion: What about reading to your children?

ApK · 03-15-2012, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Lister

I don't think 'reading' necessarily rises to the level of 'performance' but, lets carry that to its logical conclusion: What about reading to your children?

Not public.

Similarly, showing a DVD movie to your kids on the big screen in your basement is not a public performance, but putting the big screen in a public library would be. Is this really a grey area? Seems rather black and white to me.

Want a grey area? How about a couple of kids on their lawn loudly playing a CD? Passerbys stop to listen. Public performance?

Keroberos · 03-15-2012, 11:13 AM

Quote:

What about reading to your children?

Depends on where it happens and who is there. If I read a book to my child at the doctors office, since it happens in a public space where it could be heard by others the licensing organizations believe that it is. The same with true with songs.

mr ploppy · 03-15-2012, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Lister

What about reading to your children?

Sounds like legalised murder to me.

(my favourite pro-copyright quote of all time)
http://marcusblakeston.wordpress.com...galise-murder/

03-15-2012, 10:10 AM	#1
mr ploppy Feral Underclass Posts: 3,622 Karma: 26821535 Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Yorkshire, tha noz Device: 2nd hand paperback	One for the pro-copyright people to think about http://translate.google.co.uk/transl...liotheek.dhtml Translated into Pidjin Engrish by Google, but you should be able to get the gist. Book publisher rights organisation demands that libraries who read books to children have to pay them a fee to do so. Can't happen here? (wherever here is for you.)

03-15-2012, 10:38 AM	#5
QuantumIguana Philosopher Posts: 2,034 Karma: 18736532 Join Date: Jan 2012 Device: Kindle Paperwhite 2 gen, Kindle Fire 1st Gen, Kindle Touch	No, only with great difficulty and extensive twisting could reading to children a library be construed as a "performance". A single library probably wouldn't be able to fight a publishing house, but if one library fought and lost, all libraries would lose, so the publishers would be fighting the combined power of libraries. Last edited by QuantumIguana; 03-15-2012 at 10:41 AM.

03-15-2012, 10:39 AM	#6
Rob Lister Fanatic Posts: 532 Karma: 3293888 Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Virginia Device: Nook Simple Touch	I'm a bit skeptical that Belgium even exists. It could just be one of those made-up nations. Do we have any actual evidence that such a place exists? But seriously, they're welcome to their own laws. Could it happen here? Unlikely: I wouldn't be for it. This looks like fair use to me. Could the publisher (or other entity) even take it to court? Where are the damages? Last edited by Rob Lister; 03-15-2012 at 10:43 AM.

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03-15-2012, 10:26 AM	#2
QuantumIguana Philosopher Posts: 2,034 Karma: 18736532 Join Date: Jan 2012 Device: Kindle Paperwhite 2 gen, Kindle Fire 1st Gen, Kindle Touch	They aren't making copies, they are just reading. I can't do anything about Belgium's copyright laws, but I would resist this as strongly as possible if it was attempted in the US.

03-15-2012, 10:56 AM	#11
Keroberos Zealot Posts: 128 Karma: 238654 Join Date: Aug 2009 Device: Kobo Mini (4GB), Nook Classic wi-fi, iPod Touch (Bluefire Reader)	Could it happen here in the U.S.? Unfortunately it already is.