Beware of Greeks Bearing Gifts: Let's talk about The Iliad

[Billi]

Yes, this would be interesting - especially if you and the other experts here would lead us again through the text, please!

[Latinandgreek]

Originally Posted by HarryT

The Odyssey is a MUCH better story. Are we going to go on and read that at some point?

I vote yes! I will likely have a lot more time to post, I've been ridiculously busy lately and I really wish I'd had more time to contribute here.

[Latinandgreek]

Originally Posted by Hamlet53

So I finished the Iliad up last night. Even though I had been forewarned I was still a bit surprised at how it ended. I had already concluded that there would be no Trojan Horse, nor even the sack of Troy. However I thought that it might end with the death of Achilleus. Instead he is still alive and the war goes on. The last book was also rather anti-climatic.

Once more I was surprised at how childish both gods and men often were. When Achilleus goes on his killing rampage and the various gods join in on opposite sides the gods behave like petulant children. The more so that not only do the Achaians get more gods on there side, but also the only gods of any use. Ares, Aphrodite, and Artemis are not worth much more to the Trojans than getting slapped around by Hera or Athena, and then to go crying back to Zeus. It was sort of unexpected and novel when Achilleus gets into a fight with a river. The Achaians also act like spoiled children and sore losers during the various contests staged as part of the funeral of Patroklos.

Still chapter after chapter it was impossible not to really appreciate the beauty of the prose. Well worth a read, especially with this thread as a source for all sorts of information. Thanks to all!

The last book of the Iliad is actually my favourite, showing that humanity in the face of war is, in fact, possible. I cry every time I read it (but then I'm a big suck, so no surprise there ).

So what does the future hold for group reading of the classics? Or is everyone still coming to completion on The Iliad?

I would be up for the The Odyssey in the near future. That and at some point the Seamus Heaney translation of Beowulf that I recently finished. Great read, though even with obtaining the bilingual edition with the Old English side by side with the modern was not revealing in understanding the original text. Any Anglo-Saxon scholars out there to match our Latin and Greek experts? Interesting bit of information I did not know before reading the introduction. The only reason we even know of the epic Beowulf is from a single copy that survived the Middle Ages. And that copy was almost destroyed by fire in 1731.

[BenG]

Your mention of Beowulf reminds me of a Middle English poem which opens with the sack of Troy, Sir Gawain and the Green Knight.

The siege and assault having ceased at Troy
as its blazing battlements blackened to ash,
the man who had planned and plotted that treason
had trial enough for the truest traitor!
Then Aeneas the prince and his honored line
plundered provinces and held in their power
nearly all the wealth of the western isles.
Thus Romulus swiftly arriving at Rome
sets up that city and in swelling pride
gives it his name, the name it now bears;
and in Tuscany Tirius raises up towns,
and in Lombardy Langoberde settles the land,
and far past the French coast Felix Brutus
founds Britain on broad hills, and so bright hopes
begin...

[Latinandgreek]

I'd be up for both Beowulf and Sir Gawain.

I think a discussion of Beowulf and Sir Gawain and the Green Knight would be excellent. To discuss both at once and compare. There is a LibriVox recording of Beowulf, but not the Seamus Heaney translation: LibriVox Beowulf

There are online versions of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, original and modern English, available here: Sir Gawain and the Green Knight Just from a quick search. So if enough people were interested at some point . . .

So is The Iliad read finished? Is the The Odyssey still next? It's become very quiet here.

[6charlong]

Originally Posted by issybird

On January 9, 2012, we begin our long-anticipated discussion of The Iliad. The more the merrier, and all are welcome to jump in at any time.

We're going to do this differently from other group reads here at MR, given both the length and perceived difficulty of the text and people's commitments to other group reads, as well as their shiny new resolutions which need tending.

We'll start our formal discussion of the first six books in a week, so those who haven't cracked it yet can still take it at an easy pace of about a book a day. I'll post some questions and talking points on January 9, but the thread is open as of now. People should feel free to discuss the book as they're reading it, with any comments, issues or so forth. No need to wait a week. At six books a week, we'll wrap this up in a month, but the timetable can be tweaked in either direction if the consensus calls for it.

After next week's discussion, anyone who wants to be leader in a subsequent week is more than welcome; just let me know.

I think that's it. If I've been unclear about anything, just ask.

This thread is apparently closed but I finally finished with The Iliad and I wanted to mention what I took from the book.

I was impressed at what a standup fight war was to old blind Homer. It was a lot like factory work: when the sun goes down everyone goes home, eats supper and hits the sack to be ready to get up the next day and go back to work. Given their technology this was probably workable but I'd be very surprised if both sides didn't sent out patrols at night and someone had to police up the bodies which would have been a big operation.

In general, the tactics he describes were pretty much unbelievable. He describes chariots being driven through the opposing force with a driver and an archer who, oddly, is only there to shoot at heros from the opposing side. Of course, the tactic involved is trampling the enemy infantry with a team of horses. I noticed that the one most often killed here was the driver rather than the hero with the bow. That was surely a reasonable counter tactic by the opposing infantry. I realize both Greeks and Trojans lived in aristocratic societies and the hero thing supported the Superman ideal but it was issues like this that stretched my credulity and turned the narrative away from a description of a war into something else.

The only infantry tactic Homer describes is: "There they are! Let's get 'em!" It's seriously hard to believe this from the people who invented the phalanx.

They use gods to explain the irrational fortunes of war rather than looking for the reasons things happen, the source of tactical thinking. It's hard to believe that a commander as incompetent as Agamemnon could keep the loyalty of men in combat far from home. There is nothing in this story to hint at where the Greeks and Trojans acquired discipline.

In the end I had to conclude that The Iliad has little to do with war or history. It seems to be a well written religious tract lying at the heart of Western Civilization. The story involved me and the language, seen through interpreters, was engaging. I read the Lattimore translation on my book reader and listened to the Stephen Mitchell translation on audio working back and forth between the two experiences. I think it works better in aural form but I had to rely on the text version to pick up the details.

[Latinandgreek]

Originally Posted by 6charlong

This thread is apparently closed but I finally finished with The Iliad and I wanted to mention what I took from the book.

I was impressed at what a standup fight war was to old blind Homer. It was a lot like factory work: when the sun goes down everyone goes home, eats supper and hits the sack to be ready to get up the next day and go back to work. Given their technology this was probably workable but I'd be very surprised if both sides didn't sent out patrols at night and someone had to police up the bodies which would have been a big operation.

In general, the tactics he describes were pretty much unbelievable. He describes chariots being driven through the opposing force with a driver and an archer who, oddly, is only there to shoot at heros from the opposing side. Of course, the tactic involved is trampling the enemy infantry with a team of horses. I noticed that the one most often killed here was the driver rather than the hero with the bow. That was surely a reasonable counter tactic by the opposing infantry. I realize both Greeks and Trojans lived in aristocratic societies and the hero thing supported the Superman ideal but it was issues like this that stretched my credulity and turned the narrative away from a description of a war into something else.

The only infantry tactic Homer describes is: "There they are! Let's get 'em!" It's seriously hard to believe this from the people who invented the phalanx.

They use gods to explain the irrational fortunes of war rather than looking for the reasons things happen, the source of tactical thinking. It's hard to believe that a commander as incompetent as Agamemnon could keep the loyalty of men in combat far from home. There is nothing in this story to hint at where the Greeks and Trojans acquired discipline.

In the end I had to conclude that The Iliad has little to do with war or history. It seems to be a well written religious tract lying at the heart of Western Civilization. The story involved me and the language, seen through interpreters, was engaging. I read the Lattimore translation on my book reader and listened to the Stephen Mitchell translation on audio working back and forth between the two experiences. I think it works better in aural form but I had to rely on the text version to pick up the details.

The text stems (partly) from an oral tradition that likely dates back to Into-European unity, and some elements are very, very old - such as the use of bronze weaponry, the boar's head helmet, etc. Older still are some of the stock phrases that he uses, whose exact cognates can be found in other Indo-European languages (such as 'undying fame', which has an exact cognate in Sanskrit), making these elements (currently) over 4000 years old (The Iliad is believed by many scholars to have been written in the 8th century B.C., just to compare)! Thus, Homer was not describing warfare as it would have been during his lifetime, but rather as it would have been hundreds of years earlier (around 1200 B.C.), probably inserting some modern warfare elements as well, and with a sprinkling of pre-historic in there for good measure, too. Also, quite a few of the 'players' in the Iliad are also of divine or semi-divine origin, and there is a lot more of the mythic in there mixed in with the historic than one would be led to believe at first glance, so a healthy dose of suspension of disbelief is probably good here.

[sun surfer]

I actually finished reading this awhile ago but just haven't gotten around to commenting about the last fourth yet. I liked it all a lot and some of the ending chapters were the best. Though, the last chapter was a surprise. I might be a bit different from many in that once I'm going to read something, I try to tune out learning anything about what happens in it until it's over. So I wasn't prepared for it to end so abruptly!

Of course, by chapter 22 or 23 I'm starting to wonder how they're going to fit so much into these last few chapters, and by the 24th I came to realise it will "end in the middle".

I may have more to say on it another time. Once I finished the actual text, I jumped over to something else I'm trying to finish, but I plan to read the prologue (which I skipped) and the notes to the Iliad sometime soon, as well as a companion book that I'm going to order for a little more context.

Originally Posted by Hamlet53

I think a discussion of Beowulf and Sir Gawain and the Green Knight would be excellent. To discuss both at once and compare. There is a LibriVox recording of Beowulf, but not the Seamus Heaney translation: LibriVox Beowulf

There are online versions of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, original and modern English, available here: Sir Gawain and the Green Knight Just from a quick search. So if enough people were interested at some point . . .

So is The Iliad read finished? Is the The Odyssey still next? It's become very quiet here.

I think you may have read the other thread, but for others in this thread who may not have, a few weeks ago issybird had half-jokingly suggested in another thread relating to this thread maybe having a quad-annual reading group for this year for long or difficult classics/epics, with the Iliad as the first pick. I think she'd mentioned as possible picks for the rest of the year, in order: the Odyssey, the Aeneid and Ulysses. Hamlet, I also like your suggestions. Though, it does make sense to do the Odyssey next if we're continuing to another work.

I'm interested in continuing onto another work if you guys are!

[Latinandgreek]

Originally Posted by sun surfer

I'm interested in continuing onto another work if you guys are!

Count me in! So, next is the Odyssey? If I have time I will try to reread it all in Greek.

[BenG]

From Cairo to Shanghai, Tokyo to Moscow, translations of The Iliad grow from a trickle to a flood.

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v34/n04/edward-luttwak/homer-inc

[sun surfer]

I could cry, because I had a long post ready to post and lost it.

I'll try to rewrite it:

So Latinandgreek and I are the only two interested in continuing with the Odyssey?

I'm going to basically try to stick with the plan issybird had put forth:

January-Iliad
April-Odyssey
July-Aeneid
August-Ulysses

I do have an ulterior motive though. Ulysses was already on my challenge list anyway for 2012, and since I'm reading Ulysses later this year and just read the Iliad, it only makes sense to read the Odyssey in between those two since it relates to both. Then, why not throw in the Aeneid too to complete this "epics" mini-challenge?

I'll probably read Lattimore as the translation as I really enjoyed his translation for the Iliad. However, I'm still looking for a companion to read along with it. I read Malcolm Wilcock's "A Companion for the Iliad" for the Iliad, but apparently Wilcock didn't write one for the Odyssey. I'll be looking for the next few days...if anyone knows of a good one, let me know!

I don't mind reading it all alone, but if anyone else is still interested in continuing too we can read and discuss together. I think the Odyssey is shorter than the Iliad so it may be an easier read, but I'm not sure.

[issybird]

I had a difficult January and fell behind with The Iliad, but I would love to continue with The Odyssey. Let's count up the books and come up wih a schedule. (And I have a day off next week, yippee! Patriots Day in Massachusetts.)

Also looking forward to The Aeneid, which is my favorite of all of them, probably because I could read it in Latin (can't now, sigh)--and even though I read Ulysses in the original tongue.

[Latinandgreek]

I'm excited for the Odyssey! I'd been planning on reading it in Greek. It is a bit shorter than the Iliad, but not much, 2-3000 lines.