Beware of Greeks Bearing Gifts: Let's talk about The Iliad

[ctol]

Originally Posted by sun surfer

Yes! Where did that come from anyway? All the other food seems good or at least interesting, then that pops up. Wine with grated goat's cheese and barley, and then they drink it and it refreshes them! Blech.

Does anyone know anything about this? I googled for a second and didn't find anything. I know there are many cultures with many different kinds of food, but this just sounds strange when the other food mentioned so far seemed somewhat appetising. I just can't imagine drinking wine with grated goat cheese and barley in it and finding it appetising....

It is an Estruscan medical drink.

[Soldim]

Originally Posted by issybird

It's Monday again and we're halfway through. I apolgize for any confusion about the schedule; I had a rough week last week filled with crises which while minor were of the time-consuming, PITA type.

Oi, I seem to be behind

Just started reading on Saturday though -- I am somewhere in book 4, which is rather interesting. First work of fiction (ehh, hmmm...) I am reading in a long time. I enjoy the interactions and insight offered in this thread

[issybird]

I think people have gotten bogged down in the battles! So I'm going to offer a gross generalization about the action in the first six books as opposed to the second. (And I did say gross; I know there are exceptions.)

For me, the first six books were about the stalemate. Greeks and Trojans have been fighting for nine years with an advantage to neither side. All of the major players have survived until this point. This literally could go on forever.

But the gods have decided to get serious, and fate finally kicks in. Several of the majors know how it will play out. And we start to get the long view; I love the passage about the eradication over time of the Achaean's trench.

For me, these six books were largely (another gross generalization) characterized by the need to get the action going. The first six books were the set-up. Nothing of the end-game, despite the bloodbaths, has happened yet. So I regret that while I was reading rapicly last week, because I didn't have much free time, I didn't stop to note specific examples of the beautiful use of language and simile, which to me was the most salient aspect of these books. The funny bits, too. Amid the carnage, I was laughing.

[mikaelalind]

I am a bit behind, but I was stumped by the fact that my Sony froze ( but it is working now, so yay!). I am at book 3, and so far I am enjoying it. Oh, I am reading the prose version, available here at MR. Mostly since I am cheap. If I was really good, I would download the swedish edition available at Project Runeberg, and format it. But I am not.

[issybird]

So.... are we all finishing Book 18 as Monday looms? Check in and let us know where you are and what you think.

So if I understand the schedule correctly discussion is now open for Books 1 through 18. I appreciate Issybird's previous summary of Books 1-6, and then Books 7-12. I also have been enjoying the frequent use of simile. The truth is I find that these surely help lighten what is after all a whole lot of nothing but fighting and killing.

Sometimes this similes are very poetic as in this case:

Now these two, who had taken their pace in front of the high gates,stood there like two oaks who rear their crests in the mountains and through day upon day stand up to the wind and rainbeat since their roots reach far and are gripped in the ground.

At other times they seem rather odd as in this example:

The son of Priam hit hm then on the chest with an arrow in the hollow of the corselet, but the bitter arrow sprang far back. As along a great threshing floor from the broad blade of a shovel the black-skinned beans and the chickpeas bounce high under the whistling blast and the sweep of the winnowing fan, so back from the corselet of glorious Menelaos the bitter arrow rebounded far away, being driven back.

And speaking of killings this or something similar certainly appears often:

his armour rang rattling round him as he fell heavily to the ground.

Though this may be more another epithet frequently used to provide proper structure to lines of prose.

The mention of armor raises a subject that I have been curious about. The consensus seems to be that Homer lived and wrote the Iliad in the 8th Century BC. However, he was writing about events dating about 400 years before his time, circa the 12th Century BC. The Bronze Age in the areas of interest runs from around 3300 to 600 BC while the early Iron Age (Bronze Age collapse) runs from about 1300 to 600 BC. I mention this because in the Iliad the weapons and armor are generally described as being of bronze, though there are occasional references to iron weapons. So I wonder if this is an accurate reflection of history and if at the time of the events of the Iliad iron weapons and armor were still rare, difficult to obtain, and perhaps costly? Also both weapons and armor are frequently described as also including gold and silver, and not just as ornamentation but in functional capacity. To me it seems that use of theses soft metals would make the armor and weapons ostentatious stuff appropriate for ceremony and the parade ground, not something one would take into a real fight.

This sort of armor decorated with precious metals could explain how much fighting goes on over stripping dead enemy of their armor. Or perhaps this is about trophy collection to take home as evidence of ones participation and success in the war? Much like a hunter around here might pay a taxidermist to preserve the head of a six point buck shot during hunting season?


In addition to the poetic similes to provide some relief from all the fighting and killing, that was in truth getting a bit repetitive, I loved the story of how Hera seduced Zeus into having sex with her, and then a nice post coital nap, in order to keep his attention away from the fact that Poseidon was intervening on behalf of the Achaians. Then when Zeus awakens and discovers her ploy she manages to sweet talk him out of being angry with her, or punishing her. Just like a woman, and a man.

One other thin I have noticed is how personalized the tide of war is cast as. I suppose this is standard for all such epics, but when one great warrior goes on a rampage of success in killing it almost always means that his side is overwhelming the other. The Achaians have a number of such figure the most important including Agamemnon, Menelaus, Aias, Diomedes, Odysseus, and of course Achilleus. The Trojans are represented in this manner by Hektor, and, will pretty much just Hektor. It makes me wonder if only the Achaians could have some how for love or money induced Hektor to switch sides, or even just withdraw from the fighting, years and many lives could have been save.

So to respond to Issybird's latest query I have completed through Book 18. Achilleus in anger and grief over the slaying of Patroklos has now decided to return to the battle. I suspect things are about to look grim for the Trojans.

[sun surfer]

I've completed through book 18 and am waiting til Monday or Tuesday to finish the rest, taking the time now to work on other books. It's getting really good now! Books 17/18 are my favourite so far I think. Achilleus' meltdown at finding out Patroklos has died, so sad! For such an old book that spends so much time on random killings and immortal intrigue, I was surprised to find a scene so emotional, but I guess it's because Achilleus takes it so hard. And then when Thetis and the others of the sea come to join him in mourning the vision of them walking out of the sea crying is sad and beautiful.

Separately, I really love the directness of everyone. This culture is ripe for comedy. They get so offended so easily yet at other times people can hurl insults and they don't bat an eyelash. And they love to brag!

For now, I'll just quote my favourite line in the entire book so far. It caught me so off guard in its directness that I chuckled all day and still do thinking about it. It's when Priam is watching the battle on the field. Priam doesn't recognise who a particular Achaian is, so he calls Helen over and asks her who it is and she responds:

Always to me, beloved father, you are feared and respected;
and I wish bitter death had been what I wanted, when I came hither
following your son, forsaking my chamber, my kinsmen,
my grown child, and the loveliness of girls my own age.
It did not happen that way: and now I am worn with weeping.
This now I will tell you in answer to the question you asked me.
That man is Atreus' son Agamemnon, widely powerful,
at the same time a good king and a strong spearfighter,
once my kinsman, slut that I am. Did this ever happen?

Slut that she is! She just cuts right to the chase in her self-loathing, huh?

Originally Posted by sun surfer

. . .

For now, I'll just quote my favourite line in the entire book so far. It caught me so off guard in its directness that I chuckled all day and still do thinking about it. It's when Priam is watching the battle on the field. Priam doesn't recognise who a particular Achaian is, so he calls Helen over and asks her who it is and she responds:

Slut that she is! She just cuts right to the chase in her self-loathing, huh?

Yeah, I really loved that bit as well.

[mikaelalind]

Well, I am still behind. This time it is my own fault, since I wanted a break from the Illiad . On the other hand, I read fast so I should be caught up tomorrow, or on Wednesday.

I had a question, though. What is hecacomb? (Or was it hecatomb?) They mention it several times, but I have no idea what it is.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by mikaelalind

I had a question, though. What is hecacomb? (Or was it hecatomb?) They mention it several times, but I have no idea what it is.

A hecatomb is a large public sacrifice of animals to the gods.

[6charlong]

I'm only on chapter 15.

The thing that strikes me most sharply is the similarities between their gods and Christianity. Zeus is "Father" Zeus. Athena is a virgin goddess. And the gods keep meddling in human affairs the way I've heard Christians say their god to behaves, the gods often act in arbitrary and unpredictable ways. They act on caprice because someone worshipped them or someone else didn't, or they help someone against another person because that other man worshipped a different god. It seems like petty vanity, the behavior of psychopaths.

I'm reminded of something I heard from a modern pagan who writes that when a god appears in human form he or she is an exemplar of some human characteristic and is not a god like the creator of heaven and earth. They don't seem to have an abstracted creator at all.

Still, the parallels with Christianity keep popping up. Curious.

[HarryT]

This has all gone very quiet. Have we all finished reading?

[laviece]

What a great thread. Thank you.

So I finished the Iliad up last night. Even though I had been forewarned I was still a bit surprised at how it ended. I had already concluded that there would be no Trojan Horse, nor even the sack of Troy. However I thought that it might end with the death of Achilleus. Instead he is still alive and the war goes on. The last book was also rather anti-climatic.

Once more I was surprised at how childish both gods and men often were. When Achilleus goes on his killing rampage and the various gods join in on opposite sides the gods behave like petulant children. The more so that not only do the Achaians get more gods on there side, but also the only gods of any use. Ares, Aphrodite, and Artemis are not worth much more to the Trojans than getting slapped around by Hera or Athena, and then to go crying back to Zeus. It was sort of unexpected and novel when Achilleus gets into a fight with a river. The Achaians also act like spoiled children and sore losers during the various contests staged as part of the funeral of Patroklos.

Still chapter after chapter it was impossible not to really appreciate the beauty of the prose. Well worth a read, especially with this thread as a source for all sorts of information. Thanks to all!

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Hamlet53

Still chapter after chapter it was impossible not to really appreciate the beauty of the prose. Well worth a read, especially with this thread as a source for all sorts of information. Thanks to all!

The Odyssey is a MUCH better story. Are we going to go on and read that at some point?