Beware of Greeks Bearing Gifts: Let's talk about The Iliad

[BenG]

Audible also has the Rouse translation as an audiobook narrated by Anthony Heald.
This link to the Barnes and Noble product page also has a printed excerpt from the first chapter.
Just scroll about halfway down the page to where it says "Read an excerpt".

Originally Posted by HarryT

As someone who can read the Greek original, I have the say that I find the Lattimore translation to be by far the most faithful to the original. It preserves the characteristics of the oral poetry very well indeed.

If you read Pope's "translation" you're basically reading it for Pope's poetry. There's very little of Homer in there.

The Fagle translation is very readable. Less true to the original than Lattimore, but extremely readable. I'd recommend it if you just want to enjoy the story, rather than get the idea of what reading the Greek is really like.

That seems rather harsh. This I state based on no previous exposure to The Iliad in any translation, but only on my comparison Leaf et al, Butler, and Pope translations. My local library opened for the first time since the holiday break and I was able to request the Lattimore translation and the very recent Mitchell translation. When those come in I will read a few pages in comparison, and maybe switch from the Pope translation. With so many versions out there hopefully when the discussion begins it will be more about the epic than about various translations.

So HarryT did you learn to read Greek (and maybe Latin) as a part of the traditional classic education still taught in public schools in England? Or was that a specialty (or major) you elected to pursue as an individual?

[HarryT]

No, I learnt Latin and Greek as an adult purely to pursue my own studies. I've always had a fascination with ancient history, and I don't think one can really understand a culture unless one can read its literature in its original language.

That's especially true for Latin and Greek verse. It was written to be listened to, and much of the effect is in the sound and rhythm, which is completely lost in translation, unfortunately.

[HarryT]

Here's a very nice video of a portion of the Iliad, giving a very good idea of the way it sounds:

[HarryT]

It's perhaps of interest to remind ourselves how these epic poems were actually performed. They weren't silently read, as we do today. In 5th and 4th century Greece there were professional "reciters of Homer" called "rhapsodes". They were itinerant public performers, travelling from town to town, giving dramatic public performances of Homer, probably accompanying themselves on a lyre (an instrument rather like a small harp). There were competitive performances by rhapsodes at all religious festivals, with large cash prizes and great prestige going to the winner.

Just as many people today look to the Bible for moral guidance, 5th century Greeks looked to Homer. Homer was regarded as the ultimate authority on all moral issues. The answer to any question about how to live a virtuous life could be found in the Iliad and Odyssey. That's another reason rhapsodes were such respected figures: they were moral teachers as well as performers.

Edit: 5th and 4th century BC, just to clarify!

[Nyssa]

With such strong feelings "against" Pope's translation will I be wasting my time by reading it?
I didn't really see much in the way of affordable options, Kindle wise, for other translations. Although, to be honest, I only had a few minutes to look this morning.

[HarryT]

It depends what your goal is, Nyssa.

Pope is a pretty good poet, but he is incredibly constrained by having to make everything into rhyming couplets. As such, he's basically paraphrasing the Greek to make it fit with what he's forced to write by the structure of his own poem.

A prose, or a free verse, translation is going to give you a much more accurate picture of what Homer's actually saying than is a metrical, rhymed, poem like Pope. That's why I said that the reason to read Pope is for the sake of Pope's poem. It's a brilliant, wonderful poem - a great achievement in its own right. It's just not Homer.

I'm pretty sure that there are a number of prose translations of the Iliad on PG. They'd perhaps be better to read?

[HarryT]

The Samuel Butler prose translation seems pretty good to me:

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/2199

Might be worth a look.

[Nyssa]

I don't have a goal in mind other than to read the story. I've only read a little of either The Iliad or The Odessy about 20+ years ago, and I really don't remember which was which, hence my intrest in reading both. Personally, I like rhyme and rhythm , but if I'm not getting the actual story, then my enjoying it seems almost moot.

[Nyssa]

Originally Posted by HarryT

The Samuel Butler prose translation seems pretty good to me:

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/2199

Might be worth a look.

Thank you for the link. I will look at it when I get home.

Originally Posted by Nyssa

Thank you for the link. I will look at it when I get home.

Nyssa, if you don't mind using Calibre to covert from LRF to a Kindle format the Butler version is available here at MR:

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11147

[sun surfer]

So, I was curious and wanted to check out other translations now that I've read a little into the Lattimore. I found a site listing all translations with some links to previews and such which can be found here.

I sampled quite a few, usually reading the first 100 lines or so. Wow, what a difference a translation can make!

Generally, I found that the older ones were much harder for me to read. I thought they might be, but was surprised at how much difference there was in readability between older and newer translations. Pope, the most popular of the free older versions, honestly seemed much more difficult to me than the Lattimore I'm reading, and I think I'd have more questions about passages if I read the Pope or another older version than I do with Lattimore. Also, since the original apparently doesn't rhyme, I didn't like the rhyming in Pope's. However, I would say that the Pope is a majestic-sounding version with its own interesting style, just more difficult to me.

Of the many older translations listed on that site, only a very few seem to be available as ebooks, though some others have their entire texts available to read online. If I had to go with one of the few free ebook translations available, I might end up going with Pope if none of the others available seemed good enough, but I would look around a bit more at the old translations for a good, plainer, more faithful, non-rhyming verse translation that might be available as an ebook somewhere. Cowper is available as a free ebook and though it doesn't seem any plainer than Pope and may or may not have as much "majesty", is a more faithful, non-rhyming verse translation; you can see the inkmesh search for it here or direct download links at project gutenberg here.

Homer apparently wrote in a very plain and easy to understand style in the original language, so the older, more complicated English of older translations seems to make it unnecessarily more difficult to read in my opinion. If you are reading an older version and want something easier, I would suggest trying a more recent version. Unfortunately the more recent ones all cost money if that's a concern, but the difference (for me at least) in being plainer and easier to understand can be night and day.

After reading those, I'm surprised the Lattimore is referred to as textbook-like/hard by some. To me it seems much simpler than the older ones.

Of the newer versions I sampled, I generally liked them! A few of the lesser-known newer versions I tried seemed unnecessarily complicated and flowery, but the major popular ones were appealing and most newer ones were plainly written. Fagles was vibrant and simple, as was Lombardo, and Fitzgerald seemed beautifully written.

I'm still definitely sticking to Lattimore because I really like his faithful approach and plain style, but of the others, I think I might like best Fitzgerald as it seemed possibly the most beautifully written of them all, or Fagles for its vividness. Of course, my opinions are based on only the first about 100 lines or so of each.

[Nyssa]

Originally Posted by Hamlet53

Nyssa, if you don't mind using Calibre to covert from LRF to a Kindle format the Butler version is available here at MR:

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11147

Sweet! I don't mind converting, at all!! Thank you!! MR versions are usually much better than others. Will download when I get home.

[Carmelreader]

I would like to join. I have always wanted to read the Iliad and never gotten to it. Currently am trying to figure out which translation.....

[Harmon]

Originally Posted by sun surfer

[*]Lombardo - Verse, 1990. Lively and colloquial version, short lines, visceral. More "cutting edge" and a style the current generation can relate to and less concerned with a straightforward translation. Sometimes uses modern slang which may be jarring to some.

Lombardo made an audio recording of the Iliad, available on Amazon & Audible. It is, IMHO, wonderfully done, and I urge anyone who wants to have a great listening experience to get it. You can follow along in your ebook version, if you wish.

He also put up a snippet of one section which he reads in ancient Greek. http://www.wiredforbooks.org/iliad/

This review says it well - this book is for listeners:
================
89 of 92 people found the following review helpful:
5.0 out of 5 stars A must-have translation, February 28, 2002
By Graham Henderson - See all my reviews
This review is from: Iliad (Paperback)

I think I must have read every major translation of the Iliad by now. They all have something to recommend them. There are some to which I will never return. I think I would rate Robert Fagles translation as the best. All of which will afford some context when I say that Lombardo is a must read. Enough glowing things have been said here by other reviewers, so I will refrain from commenting over much on the translation per se.

What I will say is this. I SAW Book I of Lombardo's translation enacted on the stage in New York about a year and a half ago. If EVER one needed a reminder that the first auditors of this tale were listeners and not readers and that the Iliad was composed first and foremost FOR listeners, actually seeing Book I brought to life was it. It was magnificent. I had read Lombardo in preparation for the play. I LOVED it -- the immediacy of it, the currency, the urgency, the sheer page turning pace into which he rendered the Iliad. But actually seeing it? It is something I shall never forget. The audience was actually laughing outloud at certain points -- and we forget, don't we, that there is much humour in the Iliad? That laughter brought a sense of community. And it was actually possible, closing your eyes, to imagine yourself transported back in time, listening to a retelling of the Iliad -- so very, very long ago.

Traditionalists will no doubt have MAJOR problems with Lombardo. I consider myself to be reasonably traditional, but I fairly EMBRACED this translation. But I can imagine many will, like my father, run with horror from lines like:

"Now get this straight. I swear a formal oath:
.......
When every last Greek desperately misses Achilles,
Your remorse won't do any good then,
When Hector the man-killer swats you down like flies.
And you will eat your heart out
Because you failed to honour the best Greek of all."

Or:

"I've never seen men like those, and never will,
........
The strongest men who ever lived on earth, the strongest,
And they fought with the strongest, with wild things
From the mountains, and beat the daylihts out of them.
I was their companion......"

But I LOVED it -- I found my heart pounding and my blood racing at points. Buy this book and settle down in your favorite chair for a great read -- oh, and buckle your seat-belt.