STUDY SHOWS: Ditching DRM could reduce piracy, prices

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by HarryT

2. They don't buy a similar device - they switch from, say, a Sony to a Kindle, or from a Kindle to a Kobo. If they do that, DRM is going to be the least of their concerns. A far more significant issue will be the change of file format from ePub to Mobipocket, or vice versa. DRM won't really enter into the picture.

But you have to remove DRM in order to change the file format.

Originally Posted by HarryT

Please don't misunderstand me here. I'm not fan of DRM and would like to see it disappear. I just don't believe that it's a practical problem for the typical reader.

No worries, there's no misunderstanding. I think that we have a different perspective on the timing of the problem, or better yet, Schrodinger's cat.

[mbovenka]

Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors

Furthermore, stripping DRM is well within the tech reach of your average user. Look above - one of our own just did that to share with his wife and it reportedly took "10 seconds."

For me, it takes no extra effort at all. None. Ik keep all my books in Calibre, and import Kindle books I buy off my Kindle directly into it. Stripping the DRM in the process (Thank you, Apprentice Alf...).

Non-DRMed books from other sources get imported from my PC's hard disk, but the 'import into Calibre'-action is identical.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

But you have to remove DRM in order to change the file format.

Absolutely. But you're still faced with a technical issue to overcome - I meant that a lack of DRM will not, generally speaking, ease the transition between devices. File format conversion is, in itself, a pretty formidable hurdle for the typical user to overcome.

[MrsJoseph]

Originally Posted by Ken Maltby

I agree with Harry this time, the locks on my doors give me time to remove the safety.

(Perhaps, for non-Texans like Harry it would be "time to grab the cricket bat"?)

Luck;
Ken

But even better, if no safety then it's plenty of time to grab an extra clip.

Originally Posted by HarryT

Absolutely. But you're still faced with a technical issue to overcome - a lack of DRM doesn't ease the transition from one device to another, generally speaking. Sure, it's one less thing to worry about, but file format conversion is, in itself, a pretty formidable hurdle to overcome for the average non-techie user.

If you google "format + ebook + change" one of the first responses you get is this link: https://wiki.mobileread.com/wiki/E-book_conversion

If you google "format + ebook + convert" one of the first responses you get is this link: http://calibre-ebook.com/

While I do agree that a lot of "typical" users would not automatically know the situation with DRM and format changes...one simple google search will change that within 15 minutes or less.


Just because the "typical user" does not know about DRM and it's effects at this moment is no reason to assume that the typical user is not intelligent and can't figure it out. I was the "typical user" prior to finding MobileRead.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by MrsJoseph

But even better, if no safety then it's plenty of time to grab an extra clip.

That's why Glocks RULE!

[mbovenka]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I tend to agree. Library books are (IMO) the one use of DRM that I have no problem with. I wish it were harder (or at least a different process) to remove DRM from library books.

It already is, in a sense. The 'standard' tools to be had on a certain blog will not remove library/time-limited Kindle DRM:

"In concordance with our site policy of not endorsing or supporting piracy, the tools cannot remove DRM from “rented” or “time limited” Kindle ebooks. Time limiting media via DRM is one of the only legitimate reasons we can see for actually using DRM. So If you want to remove the DRM from a Kindle ebook, please buy your own copy first. Renting it is not sufficient as you do not actually own the rented ebook."

I'm cool with that as well.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by mbovenka

It already is, in a sense. The 'standard' tools to be had on a certain blog will not remove library/time-limited Kindle DRM:

"In concordance with our site policy of not endorsing or supporting piracy, the tools cannot remove DRM from “rented” or “time limited” Kindle ebooks. Time limiting media via DRM is one of the only legitimate reasons we can see for actually using DRM. So If you want to remove the DRM from a Kindle ebook, please buy your own copy first. Renting it is not sufficient as you do not actually own the rented ebook."

I'm cool with that as well.

I didn't know that. That's good to hear.

[ekster]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Please don't misunderstand me here. I'm not a fan of DRM and would like to see it disappear. I just don't believe that it's a practical problem for the typical reader.

It's not a problem for a practical reader, true. But for how long? ebooks are eReaders are still in their infancy state. A lot of people still don't know about eink. Many still tell me that eReaders are junk and will never replace a book because looking at a computer screen is not the same as a paper book, or that they're too expensive, that forgetting to recharge it every day is going to leave you without anything to read when you need it, etc.

And a lot of people who did buy one, are still on their first device, a lot of them don't know anything beyond Kindle or Amazon. So yeah, it works for now.

But what happens when a lot more devices come out, when more online stores appear, when people will be buying their second or third device and start switching devices, and when a lot more libraries will have ebooks?

People will start having problems and DRM is going to become a very hot topic. Some people will get frustrated and start going to torrents and other illegal download sites out of frustration.
It's like I previously posted ( https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...68#post1786968 ) A DRM that restricts, and reduced the number of people who can remove DRM (but does not eliminate them all) will NOT save sales. Only -one- person needs to break the DRM to make it available to the whole world and supply an infinite amount of downloads. But it will make them lose sales, as honest people who get too frustrated with a restrictive DRM will simply not buy the book at all, or worse, download it illegally. And once they download their first book free, well, they'll do it again, and again. It's a slippery slope.

So yes, while DRM is of no major consequences now, it will soon become. And if people don't show their disatisfaction with it now, it'll only get worse as publishers will be making it more and more restrictive till someone tells them to stop.

They're no different than the music or movie industry. They're greedy and they'll keep pushing it further and further. And the way things are going, they'll soon want laws so that you buy a book as often as possible, even if you already bought it five times. Want to share with your wife? Buy another. Want to share it with a friend? Buy a third. Want your kid to read it? Buy a fourth. Want to re-read it? Buy a fifth. It's been a year since you bought it but haven't had time to read it yet? Too bad, buy a sixth. Want to read it on your new device? You got it, buy a seventh. Your new device broke and they sent you a refurbished one? All together now... buy a ninth copy!

Yeah, it's an extreme example, but looking at the new copyright bills that the industries are lobbying for so badly, and considering some of the things the industries have been demanding for the new bill here in Canada, it actually might happen.

Martin Niemöller put it best:

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out --
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out --
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out --
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me -- and there was no one left to speak for me.

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Absolutely. But you're still faced with a technical issue to overcome - I meant that a lack of DRM will not, generally speaking, ease the transition between devices. File format conversion is, in itself, a pretty formidable hurdle for the typical user to overcome.

I would have to disagree on the difficulty of file format conversion. And that leaves us with a typical user that will have non-DRM books that can be converted, and DRM books that can't be converted without taking extra steps (and the small issue of the legality of it).

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

I would have to disagree on the difficulty of file format conversion. And that leaves us with a typical user that will have non-DRM books that can be converted, and DRM books that can't be converted without taking extra steps (and the small issue of the legality of it).

Very true. I suspect, though, that a user who takes the trouble to learn how to convert file formats will have no difficulty in also discovering how to remove DRM. The legality concern is certainly a valid one. Fortunately, DRM removal is legal where I live, but I realise that this is not the case for everyone, and may well be a cause for concern for many people.

[MrsJoseph]

Originally Posted by mbovenka

The 'standard' tools to be had on a certain blog will not remove library/time-limited Kindle DRM:

"In concordance with our site policy of not endorsing or supporting piracy, the tools cannot remove DRM from “rented” or “time limited” Kindle ebooks. Time limiting media via DRM is one of the only legitimate reasons we can see for actually using DRM. So If you want to remove the DRM from a Kindle ebook, please buy your own copy first. Renting it is not sufficient as you do not actually own the rented ebook."

That's great to know. I have no problem at all with DRM on rented materials.

[SmokeAndMirrors]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Absolutely. But you're still faced with a technical issue to overcome - I meant that a lack of DRM will not, generally speaking, ease the transition between devices. File format conversion is, in itself, a pretty formidable hurdle for the typical user to overcome.

It's a formidable hurdle to select a file format from a drop-down menu and click "convert?"

You must either know some very, very technically challenged people, or have a very low opinion of the intelligence of the average person.

The only reason file conversion is an issue is because of DRM. Without DRM, it's a simple matter. And converting from one ebook format to another even with a one-click program and no extra editing usually renders very good results, PDF's aside.

And let's not forget, even some DRM'ed books with the same format can't be read on another device that reads that format because of the DRM. So even if they get a second ereader that reads the formats they already use, there's no guarantee it will be compatible with another company's DRM.

DRM is what makes file conversion an issue. The conversion itself is easy - it's even easier than changing the format of a text document or a picture. And your average user knowns how to do that, so why would they struggle with something even easier?

You keep saying people don't know how to break DRM, people don't know how to pirate, and now people don't know how to convert files... but the numbers couldn't contradict you more heavily.

We wouldn't even be having this discussion if you were right, because there would be no pirating and no one would ever switch brands or formats for anything. That is simply not true. People are not as incompetent as you're making them out to be. None of these things are even difficult in the least.

And when asked for some sort of evidence of that, you offer none, or you offer contradictory anecdotes.

The mere presence and popularity of pirating sites and the shifting trends in devices and formats over time is a resounding affirmation that people are more than competent enough.

But if people really were too dumb to figure out how to convert a file, that's just one more reason why screwing them by making them re-purchase something they may or may not have even gotten around to reading is wrong, and very much a practical issue for your average user.

[kennyc]

In agreement with Harry, I think there are many non-techies that really don't want to deal with any of that and would rather re-buy any books they want to re-read if they have to on a new device.

[SmokeAndMirrors]

Originally Posted by kennyc

In agreement with Harry, I think there are many non-techies that really don't want to deal with any of that and would rather re-buy any books they want to re-read if they have to on a new device.

I'm sure there are some. Hell, my mother would probably be one of those if she had an ereader. But my mother is unusually techno-phobic - even for her age.

If most people considered one-click conversion too big of an undertaking, then why do we see pirating going up in lock-step with the popularity of ebooks?

[SmokeAndMirrors]

To illistrate my point here, here's the most pirated books as of last month:

How to Instantly Connect with Anyone: 96 All-New Little Tricks
Never Be Lied to Again: How to Get the Truth In 5 Minutes Or Less
Tracey Cox :100 Hot Sex Positions (2011)
How to Win Every Argument : The Use and Abuse of Logic
Men’s Fitness – 12 Minute Workout

http://www.mediabistro.com/ebooknews...ptember_b15739

Several of these picks appear numerous times in different reports, and themes are the same in most reports. Fitness, self-help, and sex.

So who reads this stuff?

A 1987 Gallup Survey showed that 66% of the buyers of diet, health, and exercise books were women. The largest percentage of buyers of fitness books (35%) are among people over 50 years of age. Fitness book buyers also tend to be less educated and poorer than the average book buyer.

http://www.bookmarket.com/statistics

According to Michael J. Weiss in his book, The Clustering of America, buyers of self-help books share the following lifestyle activities: They buy jazz records, drive convertibles, travel by cruise ship, enjoy skiing, and belong to a health club.

Here is something rather interesting I found at NPR, about their listeners.

Nearly 70% of all listeners are ages 25-54 with a median age of 42.

89% more likely to purchase personal/business self-help books.

http://www.wuot.org/h/underwriting/demographics.html

These are not a bunch of teenagers sitting in their parent's basement or a college dorm. These are middle-aged, often female and affluent... oh wait, that sounds suspiciously like the demographics of people who buy ereaders!

These people are more than capable of pirating. If they can do that, they can certainly strip DRM or convert a file. And they're blowing up Pirate Bay for mojo help and toned butts every day to prove it.