STUDY SHOWS: Ditching DRM could reduce piracy, prices

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by MovieBird

Instead of assuming what these people are thinking, and using that for justification, how about you ask this anecdotal sample of people if they've ever heard of DRM and what their take on it is? That's the least you can do before trotting it out as 'evidence'.

I have done; that's how I know that it's true. Being a bit of an ebook "evangelist", when I see someone at work with a Kindle (which happens frequently these days) I'll always go and chat to them about ebooks. I'll tell them about Calibre, and Apprentice Alf, and the ease of removing DRM, and offer to show them how to do it all.

You know what? They just aren't interested. They don't care about collecting books, or using Calibre to store their ebook library, or removing DRM, or being able to convert books to other formats, or any of that crap which we think is so terribly important. They just buy a book from the Kindle Store, read it, and move on. DRM? They just don't give a damn.

This has been my personal experience time and time again.

We are NOT typical users.

[SmokeAndMirrors]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I have done; that's how I know that it's true. Being a bit of an ebook "evangelist", when I see someone at work with a Kindle (which happens frequently these days) I'll always go and chat to them about ebooks. I'll tell them about Calibre, and Apprentice Alf, and the ease of removing DRM, and offer to show them how to do it all.

You know what? They just aren't interested. They don't care about collecting books, or using Calibre to store their ebook library, or removing DRM, or being able to convert books to other formats, or any of that crap which we think is so terribly important. They just buy a book from the Kindle Store, read it, and move on. DRM? They just don't give a damn.

This has been my personal experience time and time again.

We are NOT typical users.

That is very typical. People tend not to do anything proactive. The trigger for people to start caring is usually that they must be personally impacted by something.

That is a short-sighted and disastrous way to think. Unfortunately it's how we're wired. As aware of that as I am, I can still think of fairly significant cases with in the last year or two where I've done that.

Like I said, give it a couple years. The personal impacts will come. They already are.

Originally Posted by Andrew H.

The entire world does not consist of college students. The average Kindle user is a woman in her 50's 75% of Kindle users are over 35, and almost 40% are over 55. I don't think that there is a huge awareness of Pirate
Bay in this demographic, much less a desire to experiment with torrents.

You seem to have missed something. I was a middle-schooler when I figured out how to pirate things, not a college student.

On the subject of most ereaders being older, I don't think that's necessarily true. It may be true that more people who have a dedicated reader are older, but don't forget there are other devices upon which you can read ebooks.

I have to disagree that they don't know what pirating is. A simple glance at the ebook piracy stats should make that beyond obvious.

My dad knows what Pirate Bay is. So do most of my older friends. And like I said, even if you don't, it takes 5 seconds to find out. You don't need to know what the problem is, what pirating is solving, or what pirating even is. None of that is necessary to pirate something. All you need is Google and frustration.

It's almost silly to debate this, as ebook pirating is on the rise, fueled by a combination of agency pricing insanity and being screwed out the first copy that they paid for. This older demographic seems to be learning the ropes just fine.

[Harmon]

Originally Posted by frahse

What many here don't realize is that digital books, electronic readers, electronic copies of books at libraries are all made possible by DRM. No DRM, then none of that would exist.

This is an interesting assertion. I don't think it's entirely true, but it does seem to be a factor in achieving the level of EBR sophistication we have reached.

It seems to me that it is perfectly proper for a publisher to put DRM on its books - what strikes me as wrong is that the law punishes anyone who sells or distributes the tools to remove the DRM.

DRM could exist, and presumably did exist, without the protection of the DMCA. What this makes me think is that the real problem lies in the overreach of the DMCA.

Suppose, for example, the DMCA did not effectively prevent stripping of DRM, but only prohibited unauthorized resale, with the presumption that any unlimited distribution (e.g., torrenting) is equivalent to resale. I think we'd still have EBRS and ebooks.

Further, there might still be a market for EBRs to be used for reading things other than books. That market might not be filled by dedicated EBRs, but it could easily be filled by tablets. In turn, the existence of tablets could well call into existence a market for ebooks sold on the Baen model.

[xg4bx]

whenever i buy anything i try to think long term. what happens if a retailer goes out of business, do i simply lose all the books i paid for? removing the drm allows me to truly "own" the book and keep it in perpetuity. i don't trust the economic landscape nor "cloud" services.

to wrap it around to gaming, the more those publishers push for digital digital digital drm drm drm the less i buy. what do i do 10 years from now when the servers are down and the support is gone? i'm stuck with coasters or code on a hard drive that i can't get to.

[MovieBird]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I have done; that's how I know that it's true. Being a bit of an ebook "evangelist", when I see someone at work with a Kindle (which happens frequently these days) I'll always go and chat to them about ebooks. I'll tell them about Calibre, and Apprentice Alf, and the ease of removing DRM, and offer to show them how to do it all.

You know what? They just aren't interested. They don't care about collecting books, or using Calibre to store their ebook library, or removing DRM, or being able to convert books to other formats, or any of that crap which we think is so terribly important. They just buy a book from the Kindle Store, read it, and move on. DRM? They just don't give a damn.

This has been my personal experience time and time again.

We are NOT typical users.

Then why did you say:

Originally Posted by HarryT

They've probably never heard the word "DRM" and wouldn't know what it meant if they did.

How could you possibly ask them about DRM and then suppose that they've probably never heard of DRM? If you asked them, they would have heard about it right then, at the very least.

This smacks of back peddling.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by frahse

What many here don't realize is that digital books, electronic readers, electronic copies of books at libraries are all made possible by DRM. No DRM, then none of that would exist.

... then none of that would exist in it's current form.

None of the above require DRM, so if DRM didn't exist it is likely all of the above would just be implemented in a different way.

Besides, there are already plenty of digital books and uses for electronic readers that don't implement DRM. Libraries usually do, but they don't have to be done that way.

[ScalyFreak]

Originally Posted by HarryT

You know what? They just aren't interested. They don't care about collecting books, or using Calibre to store their ebook library, or removing DRM, or being able to convert books to other formats, or any of that crap which we think is so terribly important. They just buy a book from the Kindle Store, read it, and move on.

The big difference between paper and digital in this case is that if you want to read one of the books they've moved on from, your co-worker can give you the paper copy they will never read again. If they bought it for the Kindle, you have to purchase your own copy.

So from the point of view of preventing casual sharing, the DRM is a roaring success. However, that doesn't guarantee a sale. You may decide not to get the book at all, if you have to pay $9.99 for it.

[OtterBooks]

Originally Posted by HarryT

You know what? They just aren't interested. They don't care about collecting books, or using Calibre to store their ebook library, or removing DRM, or being able to convert books to other formats, or any of that crap which we think is so terribly important. They just buy a book from the Kindle Store, read it, and move on. DRM? They just don't give a damn.

This has been my personal experience time and time again.

We are NOT typical users.

It pretty much comes down to this.

[Catlady]

OK, we're not typical users. But we account for the purchases of a lot more books than the typical users. We're spending a lot more money on books than typical users. Since we're reading a lot, we're also probably recommending books to our families and friends, influencing their choices. Seems to me that keeping us happy is important, and most of us would say that DRM is not conducive to our happiness.

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by HarryT

... or they don't give a damn about it - which I strongly suspect, based on my interactions with "normal" eBook owners, is the case for the typical user, who buys books in the store that's linked to his reader, and has never even heard of "DRM".

Because the typical user will never get a different reader to discover that it can't open the purchased books?

Originally Posted by HarryT

"Being burned in the future" is only an issue if you re-read books. My experience is that most people don't. They buy a book, read it, and never read it again. They aren't buying books to keep, or to collect; they're buying them as a form of ephemeral entertainment.

If you don't re-read them, then why buy and not get them from the library?

Originally Posted by HarryT

Without DRM, most mainstream publishers wouldn't be publishing eBooks. That's a fact. It's not the bookstores who are insisting upon DRM; it's the publishers. If it's a choice between having eBooks published with DRM, and not having them published at all, give me DRM any day.

That's not a fact, that's an assumption. Publishers didn't invent ebooks. They are being sold because there is a demand. They would be sold even if applying DRM would be illegal.

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

You're right, DRM is absolutely useless for preventing piracy. However, it is fairly effective at removing rights from the legitimate consumer.

The problem is that there are many consumers that don't notice that these rights are gone, and we can end up in a situation where people consider them privileges of pbooks, and not rights.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

Because the typical user will never get a different reader to discover that it can't open the purchased books?

That, and the fact that, if you buy books, read them immediately, and don't re-read them, it becomes rather a moot point what a future device may or may not do.

If you don't re-read them, then why buy and not get them from the library?

The Kindle completely dominates the UK eBook market, and unfortunately library lending is not currently available on the Kindle in the UK.

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by HarryT

That, and the fact that, if you buy books, read them immediately, and don't re-read them, it becomes rather a moot point what a future device may or may not do.

The average person would buy another device if the old one stopped working, or was given away, or lost, or a new one is much better (and possibly cheaper). You are assuming that they are not reading a book at the moment of purchase and wouldn't read any previously purchased books on the new device, not even just to open it and see how it looks?

[SmokeAndMirrors]

Originally Posted by HarryT

That, and the fact that, if you buy books, read them immediately, and don't re-read them, it becomes rather a moot point what a future device may or may not do.

The Kindle completely dominates the UK eBook market, and unfortunately library lending is not currently available on the Kindle in the UK.

What's with the logical fallacies, man?

Again, please explain to me why your baseless assumption that people don't use their rights logically means that it is no big deal to take their rights away. I've never used my right to attorney. Should it be taken?

Another face-palmer here. Kindle doesn't do it, where you are specifically, therefore it doesn't exist? The guy was asking as a general concept - he wasn't asking about what your friends do for whatever reason. Responding as you did is a complete non-sequitur. Does anything exist outside you, besides a 5-foot radius directly around your body and your own assumptions?

Hey, guess what! Your assumptions and narrow experiences are not the same thing as facts or even good argumentation! Getting Kindle library books is super easy where I am!

You can get library books in various formats from the county public library here, including for the Kindle. It's perfectly accessible to Kindle-users. In fact. in this country, over 11,000 libraries support Kindle as of this past April.

Given how heavily the US outweighs the UK in both sheer numbers and percentage of people using ebooks (more than twice over, so imagine how big the sheer numbers difference is), I hardly think it qualifies as useful to take something that currently applies to one very small small sector of the market, and wipe it across the entire board by using it as a response to a general question.

I try not to do that by focusing too much on the US because I'm not a jingo, but doing it with a considerably smaller market segment is even more illogical.

Hey, P.S., I've yet to see you address the counters to any of your arguments.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

The average person would buy another device if the old one stopped working, or was given away, or lost, or a new one is much better (and possibly cheaper). You are assuming that they are not reading a book at the moment of purchase and wouldn't read any previously purchased books on the new device, not even just to open it and see how it looks?

No, I'm not assuming that. But there are really only two possibilities here:

1. They buy a similar device to the one that they were previously using. (eg, another Kindle, or another ePub device). In that case, DRM is not an issue. They register the new device to the same account that they were using the old one with, and they're good to go.

2. They don't buy a similar device - they switch from, say, a Sony to a Kindle, or from a Kindle to a Kobo. If they do that, DRM is going to be the least of their concerns. A far more significant issue will be the change of file format from ePub to Mobipocket, or vice versa. DRM won't really enter into the picture.

Please don't misunderstand me here. I'm not a fan of DRM and would like to see it disappear. I just don't believe that it's a practical problem for the typical reader.