Steve Jobs has died

[Noah98]

Originally Posted by kjk

Actually, I believe most people her are "for the truth". And there will be many opportunities on this board and other places to debate Steve Jobs's lack of innovation, and Apple's lack of creativity. There will be many opportunities to debate who we don't admire that much, and list "other IT geniuses" that we think are more important than Steve Jobs, and why we think their deaths are more important.

But Steve Jobs' family just buried him this afternoon. He was a father, a husband, a friend, a coworker, and a respected figure to many, and he just passed away at age 56.

Do people really think this is the time and place to try to debate people about why you don't think Steve Jobs was "all that?" To post publicly, as one blogger did today, "people are too polite to say this, but here's a big list of all his negative qualities"? Do they think his family and friends don't browse the Internet, and maybe stuff like that, even if it is "the truth", might be hurtful so soon after he died?

This isn't about the right to free speech, or having a right to voice an opinion. Of course we all respect those rights. But there is also simple human decency, and respect for others, especially when their grieving period has just started.

Even if you feel nothing yourself about his passing, the fact that others have expressed it publicly, in this thread, and in the world, should be a clue to maybe let well enough alone for a bit.

Just a little respect in our corner of the Internet.

Well said

[DiapDealer]

Perhaps the thread should be re-titled "The Steve Jobs Memorial Thread". That way, people would know that's it's not meant as a general discussion about the fact that "Steve Jobs Has Died" and all its numerous repercussions/reactions. Other than natural empathy for other humans who are going through an emotional tragedy, I've never really understood public outpourings of grief over the deaths of people whose personal lives never intersected their own. Be respectful? Certainly. Accept that some will be more sensitive about the topic than others? You bet. But to expect some sort of moratorium (of some arbitrary length) on any responses other than "RIP Steve" to be respected isn't realistic, nor would it even represent the moral high-road that some seem to think it does.

Hate spewing is one thing. I choose to ignore that. But asking questions about his proper place among the technological/creative/innovative "greats" of our lifetime was appropriate before he died, and I see no reason that his death should change that—provided it's done without a "he sucks" attitude.

That's my peacefully offered two cents on the matter.

[OtterBooks]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Perhaps the thread should be re-titled "The Steve Jobs Memorial Thread". That way, people would know that's it's not meant as a general discussion about the fact that "Steve Jobs Has Died" and all its numerous repercussions/reactions. Other than natural empathy for other humans who are going through an emotional tragedy, I've never really understood public outpourings of grief over the deaths of people whose personal lives never intersected their own. Be respectful? Certainly. Accept that some will be more sensitive about the topic than others? You bet. But to expect some sort of moratorium (of some arbitrary length) on any responses other than "RIP Steve" to be respected isn't realistic, nor would it even represent the moral high-road that some seem to think it does.

Hate spewing is one thing. I choose to ignore that. But asking questions about his proper place among the technological/creative/innovative "greats" of our lifetime was appropriate before he died, and I see no reason that his death should change that—provided it's done without a "he sucks" attitude.

That's my peacefully offered two cents on the matter.

Someone should make a "The Past and Future of Apple" thread in General for no-holds barred irreverent discussion of Apple as a company; how they stand now; what Jobs meant for them; what happens from here, etc. I nominate you. I'm chicken.

[Johannes]

This is the man who build the company that is valued highest, not only by 'Apple fans', but more importantly by the total investment community. Equaly amazing, and not unrelated, is the fact that this guy made me want to queue up to buy an electronic device. No one around me would have thought that to be possible. RIP Steve.

[kjk]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Perhaps the thread should be re-titled "The Steve Jobs Memorial Thread". That way, people would know that's it's not meant as a general discussion about the fact that "Steve Jobs Has Died" and all its numerous repercussions/reactions. Other than natural empathy for other humans who are going through an emotional tragedy, I've never really understood public outpourings of grief over the deaths of people whose personal lives never intersected their own. Be respectful? Certainly. Accept that some will be more sensitive about the topic than others? You bet. But to expect some sort of moratorium (of some arbitrary length) on any responses other than "RIP Steve" to be respected isn't realistic, nor would it even represent the moral high-road that some seem to think it does.

Hate spewing is one thing. I choose to ignore that. But asking questions about his proper place among the technological/creative/innovative "greats" of our lifetime was appropriate before he died, and I see no reason that his death should change that—provided it's done without a "he sucks" attitude.

That's my peacefully offered two cents on the matter.

I don't think a thread title change is what should guide how people respond someone who just died. I just assumed people all had similar feelings about how to mark the occasion. But I admit I was wrong about that.


But it has nothing to do with moral high-roads, imho. It has to do with what Jeff LaMarche calls a simple "respect for the dead" in our modern society.

There's a custom in modern society that's often called "respect for the dead". It has nothing whatsoever to do with the dead. The dead don't care what you say about them. It's about the living who cared about the dead, and they do. It's because they care that mourning is such a difficult process. Painful. Sad. It's not a time when you want reminders of the flaws of the person whose absence you are trying to come to terms with.

But I realize not everyone believes that, especially with people they don't personally know, and believe "calling it like I see it" overrides that sentiment.

Fair enough.

[SeaKing]

Originally Posted by kjk

Actually, I believe most people her are "for the truth". And there will be many opportunities on this board and other places to debate Steve Jobs's lack of innovation, and Apple's lack of creativity. There will be many opportunities to debate who we don't admire that much, and list "other IT geniuses" that we think are more important than Steve Jobs, and why we think their deaths are more important.

But Steve Jobs' family just buried him this afternoon. He was a father, a husband, a friend, a coworker, and a respected figure to many, and he just passed away at age 56.

Do people really think this is the time and place to try to debate people about why you don't think Steve Jobs was "all that?" To post publicly, as one blogger did today, "people are too polite to say this, but here's a big list of all his negative qualities"? Do they think his family and friends don't browse the Internet, and maybe stuff like that, even if it is "the truth", might be hurtful so soon after he died?

This isn't about the right to free speech, or having a right to voice an opinion. Of course we all respect those rights. But there is also simple human decency, and respect for others, especially when their grieving period has just started.

Even if you feel nothing yourself about his passing, the fact that others have expressed it publicly, in this thread, and in the world, should be a clue to maybe let well enough alone for a bit.

Just a little respect in our corner of the Internet.

You don't have to like someone personally in order to appreciate the great contributions they made.

It may be that in order to contribute so much they had to sacrifice something of their personality. Perhaps these people are driven so that their likability quotient suffers.

Bill Gates
Steve Jobs
Larry Ellison
Michael Dell
The nut that started Facebook

[Kubizo]

I'm for the truth. Jobs was not as innovative as people think. It's a lot easier to reinvent a product that already exists then it is to come up with a totally new product. Apple doesn't do new. They do changes to products others already have. That is the truth.

With all due respect, I disagree. Everybody is focusing about the iPhone and iPad, which by the way I don't like, but that is NOTHING compared to what Steve Jobs did in the early days.

Steve Jobs INVENTED THE MOUSE! Exactly, the little thing everyone has used to post on this thread was first released on an Apple computer, in the early days at Apple. True, there had been prototypes before, but never (at least to my knowledge) a complete package of a visual operating system with windows before Microsoft released windows. He did not invent the mouse as a physical object, but he invented the way we use it today.

Again, I'm not an Apple fan, all I have from them is an iPod nano I got as a present and I hardly ever use, but without Steve Jobs the computing world would not be what it is today.

And if improving is so much easier than inventing, why did he do it so much better than anyone else so many times? In my opinion, because he was a genius and because refinement is not easier, is just different (and a lot more profitable - see how much money Xerox made on the mouse, close to nothing).

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Kubizo

Steve Jobs INVENTED THE MOUSE! Exactly, the little thing everyone has used to post on this thread was first released on an Apple computer, in the early days at Apple. True, there had been prototypes before, but never (at least to my knowledge) a complete package of a visual operating system with windows before Microsoft released windows.

You are mistaken. Mice have been around since the late 1960s, and computers such as the Xerox Alto used both a mouse and a graphical user interface. The Alto influenced both the Macintosh and early Sun workstations.

The first commercially-sold computer to use a mouse and a GUI was the Xerox Star, released in 1981, three years earlier than the first Mac.

[frahse]

Originally Posted by SeaKing

You don't have to like someone personally in order to appreciate the great contributions they made.

It may be that in order to contribute so much they had to sacrifice something of their personality. Perhaps these people are driven so that their likability quotient suffers.

Bill Gates
Steve Jobs
Larry Ellison
Michael Dell
The nut that started Facebook

Good point.
Were Thomas Edison, AG Bell, Robert Ford good guys.
A Einstein slept around.

Heck who is without fault?

[Kubizo]

Thanks for the clarification!

I'm not an expert and, although I mentioned Xerox in my post, I have never seen an Alto switched on. From the little knowledge I have, though, its GUI was only partially graphic. Copying a file still required a text command and the mouse was only used for text and graphics editing. Prototypes of mouses were in use since the 1960s, but were not used the way we use them today.

Again, I might be wrong and I would appreciate further corrections.

In general my point was: Steve Jobs is not just iPhone and iPad. He played a key role in the history of operating systems and movie graphics.

Ciao!

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by Kubizo

Thanks for the clarification!

I'm not an expert and, although I mentioned Xerox in my post, I have never seen an Alto switched on. From the little knowledge I have, though, its GUI was only partially graphic. Copying a file still required a text command and the mouse was only used for text and graphics editing. Prototypes of mouses were in use since the 1960s, but were not used the way we use them today.

Again, I might be wrong and I would appreciate further corrections.

In general my point was: Steve Jobs is not just iPhone and iPad. He played a key role in the history of operating systems and movie graphics.

Ciao!

Xerox had a research center designed to do cutting edge research in human computer interfaces (among other things) in the mid to late 1970's) They had ordinary people try out various ways to interact with computers, to see what worked best. They used $100,000 mini computers called Doradus's (custom build for Xerox) as their test computers, and spent years determining what was best (foot pedals, mice, all sorts of things) What most people think of the mouse/GUI interface was pioneered and smoothed out by the research center (PARC). Steve Jobs toured PARC around 1980, played with the interface, and decided to use it for a high end micro computer, which were just beginning to have enough computing power to support such an interface. (This was all discussed in an old magazine called BYTE, in the issue announcing the release of the first Mac.)

Apple was only a few miles from PARC, while Microsoft was up in Seattle, a thousand miles away....

[JSWolf]

I feel for Jobs' family and friends. He did die too young.

But let's not sugar coat his accomplishments. Why say he as a great innovator when he/Apple never/rarely invented anything that wasn't already existing before hand?

[hidari]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I feel for Jobs' family and friends. He did die too young.

But let's not sugar coat his accomplishments. Why say he as a great innovator when he/Apple never/rarely invented anything that wasn't already existing before hand?

Indeed....

[Kubizo]

Steve Jobs toured PARC around 1980, played with the interface, and decided to use it for a high end micro computer, which were just beginning to have enough computing power to support such an interface. (This was all discussed in an old magazine called BYTE, in the issue announcing the release of the first Mac.)

Apple was only a few miles from PARC, while Microsoft was up in Seattle, a thousand miles away....

Highly interesting! I should read BYTE I guess :-) Thanks again!

[kacir]

Originally Posted by Kubizo

Steve Jobs INVENTED THE MOUSE! Exactly, the little thing everyone has used to post on this thread was first released on an Apple computer, in the early days at Apple. True, there had been prototypes before, but never (at least to my knowledge) a complete package of a visual operating system with windows before Microsoft released windows. He did not invent the mouse as a physical object, but he invented the way we use it today.

With all due respect, I disagree.
He might have been the one to put it successfully on the market as a comprehensive packet, but ...

See "the mother of all Demos"
http://sloan.stanford.edu/MouseSite/1968Demo.html

On December 9, 1968, Douglas C. Engelbart and the group of 17 researchers working with him in the Augmentation Research Center at Stanford Research Institute in Menlo Park, CA, presented a 90-minute live public demonstration of the online system, NLS, they had been working on since 1962. The public presentation was a session of the Fall Joint Computer Conference held at the Convention Center in San Francisco, and it was attended by about 1,000 computer professionals. This was the public debut of the computer mouse. But the mouse was only one of many innovations demonstrated that day, including hypertext, object addressing and dynamic file linking, as well as shared-screen collaboration involving two persons at different sites communicating over a network with audio and video interface.

There are many other examples, but I am not going to discuss it in this thread.