Are Fair Use Rights coming to an end?

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by ApK

I'm sorry, but this whole discussion of "rent, lease, buy" is misapplied and irrelevant. Digital intellectual property is DIFFERENT than physical goods, and you have DIFFERENT rights concerning it's use. To try to claim an entitlement to someone's IP because of what you can or can't do to a car you buy is NOT appropriate, and trying to shoehorn the terms from one to fit the other can only lead to disapointment.

Fact is, whether you "buy" a paperback or an ebook, you STILL have only certain restricted licensed rights, most notably those governed by copyright law, as to what you can do with the content.

If the sales-of-ebooks are actually sales-of-licenses-to-read-ebooks, the terms of the sale need to say that, and establish the license's terms of use. Most ebook sales sites (all, perhaps) don't do this--

1) They call their offerings "sales of books" ("click here to buy this book!" not "click here to license this book!")
2) The terms of sale have no end date or condition, which is required for use-licenses in the US (there's no legal allowance for "This is a license to use forever, but only in ways I allow you to use it").
3) The restrictions on use are buried far away from the actual collect-your-money pages; sometimes, you're not required to see them at all before buying. Certainly, you're not shown the contract terms before *each* sale, the way you are for other licenses. People are not bound to contract terms that weren't mentioned before the sale.
4) The actual terms of use aren't spelled out *anywhere.* Some restrictions are described; where terms are mentioned, they go far beyond any reasonable legal allowance ("only the buyer may read this book"--what, I can't allow my husband access to my computer when that book is open? I can't read it out loud to my kids?) and imply that purchasers don't have fair use rights.
5) The copyright page in many ebooks includes claims that are not legally enforceable, just like the page in many print books that claim you can't use ANY of the contents AT ALL without written permission--denying all fair use ability.

If ebooks are licensed, not sold, the stores licensing them need to detail those licenses. Some have license descriptions; many do not--they just say "you can't resell this," although that's a meaningless, non-enforceable statement.

When you buy a disc of music, you have the right to sell that disc later. The issue of what, exactly, you are buying is secondary (the disc? The music on it?)--the legal issue is whether you BOUGHT something, or licensed it.

Selling is simple; it takes two people and an exchange of goods, services and/or money. Licensing is complicated; it has to be fully described. None of the current ebook stores describe their licenses fully, and none of them require buyers to acknowledge they've read & understood the license. ("Click here to agree or you can't buy" is not the same as establishing understanding.) They all work to *hide* their licenses--either long webpages in tiny grey print, buried several layers away from the "BUY THIS NOW" part of the site, or popup boxes with small windows when you first install the reading software--but not when you buy books.

[jbjb]

I've just installed Kindle for Mac 1.6 on my MacBook (the first time a Kindle app has been installed on this Mac), and I find that it loses registration every time I restart it, and I end up having to delete and re-download the books I'm reading. (It also registers as "Kindle for Mac 2", "... 3" etc...).

I have had the Calibre plugin installed, but not any longer.

Does anyone know if this is related to the comments on Alf's blog, or is it just a Kindle for Mac bug?

/JB

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by jbjb

I've just installed Kindle for Mac 1.6 on my MacBook (the first time a Kindle app has been installed on this Mac), and I find that it loses registration every time I restart it, and I end up having to delete and re-download the books I'm reading. (It also registers as "Kindle for Mac 2", "... 3" etc...).

I have had the Calibre plugin installed, but not any longer.

Does anyone know if this is related to the comments on Alf's blog, or is it just a Kindle for Mac bug?

/JB

It sounds like Kindle for Mac is not able to save it's preferences. No idea why, but nothing to do with the plugin.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by ApK

Fact is, whether you "buy" a paperback or an ebook, you STILL have only certain restricted licensed rights, most notably those governed by copyright law, as to what you can do with the content.

Stop trying to say that because you can resell your car, you should be able to resell an ebook.

You can resell a paperback, last time I checked. Copyright law doesn't have anything to do with sale vs license.

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by ApK

I'm sorry, but this whole discussion of "rent, lease, buy" is misapplied and irrelevant. Digital intellectual property is DIFFERENT than physical goods, and you have DIFFERENT rights concerning it's use. To try to claim an entitlement to someone's IP because of what you can or can't do to a car you buy is NOT appropriate, and trying to shoehorn the terms from one to fit the other can only lead to disapointment.

Fact is, whether you "buy" a paperback or an ebook, you STILL have only certain restricted licensed rights, most notably those governed by copyright law, as to what you can do with the content.

Stop trying to say that because you can resell your car, you should be able to resell an ebook. It's as invalid an argument as saying that because you can breath air, you should be able to breath a paperback.

If you only want the right on one because you have it on the other, then get over it, they are different things, with different properties, and it's more than reasonable that they have different rules.

If, on the other hand, you believe you should have a certain right on it's own merits, as for example, I believe we should have the right to read ebooks on the device of our choice, then argue it that way, on it's merits.
Laws and corporate policy can and do change all the time. Yes, the "industry" has influence in that area, but so do consumers and citizens. With our combined tax dollars and consumer spending, we can be just as effective as they are.

ApK

You're conflating the object (the physical book or the actual digital file) and the content (the unique expression that is protected by copyright).

I pay for the object, I should be able to do what I want with it.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

You can resell a paperback, last time I checked. Copyright law doesn't have anything to do with sale vs license.

Yes, you can. You can resell a paperback. You can resell a car.
Last I checked, neither paperbacks nor cars were eBooks.
There are LOTS of things you can do with eBooks that you can't do with paperbacks (or cars) and vice versa.
That you can do it with one is not in any way a valid argument that you should be able to do it with the other.
Ebooks can be instantly replaced by download if the files are lost.
Shall we complain that publishers don't replace our paperbacks instantly for free if we lose them?

If you think we should have resale rights on ebooks, great. I'm with you.
But it's not because "we have resale rights on other things."

The mention of copyright was just to point out that there are limits on our use and reuse of the physical books we buy (and many other goods) as well.

It's matter of which limits we think are fair and appropriate to the actual case at hand, not just comparing it to some different case.

ApK

[ApK]

Originally Posted by Catlady

You're conflating the object (the physical book or the actual digital file) and the content (the unique expression that is protected by copyright).

I pay for the object, I should be able to do what I want with it.

_I_ am not confusing them, I am strenuously pointing out the distinction.

You can sell your DRMed digital file to your friend....they can't do anything with the contents, but if they have some need to buy the encrypted bits, more power to them. You can delete the file, degauss it from your disk, whatever. But once you start providing access to the CONTENT...that's where it seems obvious that there can legitimately be different rights and restrictions associated with those easily copied and transmitted bits than with a physical object of any kind.

Want different or more rights? Great! But the comparison to physical goods, and the furor over the term "buy" as if it had some guaranteed import any time it is ever applied to anything ....what term did the noob above misapply to me: "apples to chainsaws." Or, more on the nose, "abstract digital data to chainsaws."

ApK

[ficbot]

My issue is, if it is a rental, then they need to charge me rental prices. They can't charge me $14.99 (i.e. full retail price) for something, give me LESS rights then I would have had with the physical product (i.e. I can't resell it) and then tell me that my continued access to it depends on their benevolence. If they want to go to an all rental and no owning scheme, fine, but they need to price accordingly then, just like the movie people do where a rental costs less.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by ApK

Yes, you can. You can resell a paperback. You can resell a car.
Last I checked, neither paperbacks nor cars were eBooks.

Copyright makes no distinction between physical IP and digital IP.

If you think we should have resale rights on ebooks, great. I'm with you.
But it's not because "we have resale rights on other things."

It's the exact same reason that we have resale rights on other things. First-sale doctrine is what says you can resell your paperback. There's nothing in first-sale doctrine that says you can't resell an ebook.

The ONLY thing that stops you from being able to resell your ebook is DRM. There are no legal restrictions against doing so. It is perfectly legal right now to resell a non-DRM ebook.

[speedlever]

They can charge whatever they want. You can choose to "purchase" or not. I put purchase in parentheses because I don't know if we're actually buying something or not.

CW would tend to say that if I pay money and get something in return, I own it. Whether or not words formed on paper vs words formed on a display constitute physical property is too fine a distinction for my tastes. I merely wish to read the content and have little concern for the way in which the content is packaged.

[Shimarenda]

Originally Posted by speedlever

Good to know your concerns were groundless.

They weren't entirely groundless. Fair Use is a legal concept within US copyright law which has nothing to do with what you are talking about.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

If it makes you feel any better, a lot of Angry Robot titles are available from most of the other online ebook vendors, as well, for around $4.79 (US). There is no guarantee that they will still be DRM free, but I've found that many of them are.

In ePub I hope.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

The ONLY thing that stops you from being able to resell your ebook is DRM. There are no legal restrictions against doing so. It is perfectly legal right now to resell a non-DRM ebook.

If I buy an eBook with no DRM and I want to sell it because I will never be reading it again, how do I do this? How do I take away my ability to download it again? How can I have it moved from my account to the seller's account? I know I can delete all copies and never download it again. But it's the fact that I have access to download it after the sale that's the issue.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

If it makes you feel any better, a lot of Angry Robot titles are available from most of the other online ebook vendors, as well, for around $4.79 (US). There is no guarantee that they will still be DRM free, but I've found that many of them are.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

In ePub I hope.

1) Only one major online vendor exclusively sells mobi.
2) "most of the other online ebook vendors" = probably quite a few but, certainly more than one.

So, yeah... I think you'll find them in ePub. Stop being so contrary.

[j.p.s]

After numerous non sequitur complaints, each shot down:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

In ePub I hope.

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I think you'll find them in ePub. Stop being so contrary.

That would be contrary to his nature.