Are Fair Use Rights coming to an end? - Page 13

Beerman · 07-20-2011, 10:28 AM

The whole DRM thing (music, books, video) gets tiring. When I was a kid, we listened to AM radio (I'm old) and we had a portable cassette recorder that we used to record our favorite songs. We shared those cassettes with one another. Oh no! We stole!
We also shared and gave away records we bought to others (free of course). When VHS came out, we recorded tv and movies and shared those with friends and family. Then the same with cd's and dvd's and on and on and on.
So, I buy a book, talk to a friend and they say they'd like to read it so I loan them my copy. Is all this breaking the law?
If not, how is buying a kindle version but later putting on my ipad or other device. Once I buy it, can't I do what I want with my property? I can park my car in front of my house, in my garage or leave it in a shopping center parking lot too.
This is all just crazy greed plain and simple and people (definitely the majority) are tired of being labeled criminals.
<rant off>

speedlever · 07-20-2011, 10:34 AM

The comparable example in your case would be that your ability to do what you want with your car will depend on whether you own it or you lease it.

Therein lies the crux of the argument. Seems the publishers only want to lease out their products instead of selling it outright.

Or so I understand.

Phogg · 07-20-2011, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by speedlever

The comparable example in your case would be that your ability to do what you want with your car will depend on whether you own it or you lease it.

Therein lies the crux of the argument. Seems the publishers only want to lease out their products instead of selling it outright.

Or so I understand.

Exacly, but they fervently desire to be allowed by the government to tell you they are selling you their product at the time of the transaction so that you do not choose somebody else's product that actually is for sale.

They want to lease to you under false pretenses, and they want the force of government to back them up on it.

ApK · 07-20-2011, 10:52 AM

I'm sorry, but this whole discussion of "rent, lease, buy" is misapplied and irrelevant. Digital intellectual property is DIFFERENT than physical goods, and you have DIFFERENT rights concerning it's use. To try to claim an entitlement to someone's IP because of what you can or can't do to a car you buy is NOT appropriate, and trying to shoehorn the terms from one to fit the other can only lead to disapointment.

Fact is, whether you "buy" a paperback or an ebook, you STILL have only certain restricted licensed rights, most notably those governed by copyright law, as to what you can do with the content.

Stop trying to say that because you can resell your car, you should be able to resell an ebook. It's as invalid an argument as saying that because you can breath air, you should be able to breath a paperback.

If you only want the right on one because you have it on the other, then get over it, they are different things, with different properties, and it's more than reasonable that they have different rules.

If, on the other hand, you believe you should have a certain right on it's own merits, as for example, I believe we should have the right to read ebooks on the device of our choice, then argue it that way, on it's merits.
Laws and corporate policy can and do change all the time. Yes, the "industry" has influence in that area, but so do consumers and citizens. With our combined tax dollars and consumer spending, we can be just as effective as they are.

ApK

DiapDealer · 07-20-2011, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

The exchange rate is the issue. And given how the US is going down the toilet, I feel the exchange rate will get worse.

If it makes you feel any better, a lot of Angry Robot titles are available from most of the other online ebook vendors, as well, for around $4.79 (US). There is no guarantee that they will still be DRM free, but I've found that many of them are.

speedlever · 07-20-2011, 11:00 AM

Good points ApK. I retract my example.

But in other, more important news, I'll have you know that this discussion is interfering with my watching of the TdF.

Kimmy_Kitty_1116 · 07-20-2011, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApK

I'm sorry, but this whole discussion of "rent, lease, buy" is misapplied and irrelevant. Digital intellectual property is DIFFERENT than physical goods, and you have DIFFERENT rights concerning it's use. To try to claim an entitlement to someone's IP because of what you can or can't do to a car you buy is NOT appropriate, and trying to shoehorn the terms from one to fit the other can only lead to disapointment.

Fact is, whether you "buy" a paperback or an ebook, you STILL have only certain restricted licensed rights, most notably those governed by copyright law, as to what you can do with the content.

Stop trying to say that because you can resell your car, you should be able to resell an ebook. It's as invalid an argument as saying that because you can breath air, you should be able to breath a paperback.

If you only want the right on one because you have it on the other, then get over it, they are different things, with different properties, and it's more than reasonable that they have different rules.

If, on the other hand, you believe you should have a certain right on it's own merits, as for example, I believe we should have the right to read ebooks on the device of our choice, then argue it that way, on it's merits.
Laws and corporate policy can and do change all the time. Yes, the "industry" has influence in that area, but so do consumers and citizens. With our combined tax dollars and consumer spending, we can be just as effective as they are.

ApK

Dead wrong. Every right you desire to have for copyright exists as is in the law...for a lease.

No you do not get to change the language and have the world go along with it just so you can compete better with your lease against someone who mis offering a similar product for sale at that price.

Your torturous apples and chainsaws analogies detract from the weight of your own arguements.

YOU are the one who needs to "get over it".

speedlever · 07-20-2011, 11:12 AM

Good point.

I reinstate my example.

Now let me get back to finish watching the... oh wait, it's already over.

Beerman · 07-20-2011, 11:34 AM

I guess in a few years it will progress to the point that when you walk out of a movie theater, you can't even discuss the movie! Yea, I know, I'm being ridiculous in order to make my point.
I actually can see both sides on this issue but to me, it's very black and white. I'm just a simpleton who believes in common sense a bit too much.

j.p.s · 07-20-2011, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beerman

I guess in a few years it will progress to the point that when you walk out of a movie theater, you can't even discuss the movie! Yea, I know, I'm being ridiculous in order to make my point.

You've failed at being ridiculous. Various software licenses forbid discussing performance, i.e. publishing benchmark results is forbidden.

ApK · 07-20-2011, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kimmy_Kitty_1116

Every right you desire to have for copyright exists as is in the law...for a lease.

I don't understand that sentence. Does the word 'lease' even appear in copyright law?

ApK · 07-20-2011, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by speedlever

Good point.

I reinstate my example.

Now let me get back to finish watching the... oh wait, it's already over.

What point did she make, exactly?

speedlever · 07-20-2011, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApK

What point did she make, exactly?

I don't know. I had more important things at hand. Couldn't you tell?

The Terminator · 07-20-2011, 12:50 PM

Until this happens to E-pub I'm not going to get upset about it. This doesn't stop you from getting an E-pub, DeDRM'ing it, and converting to MOBI. Unless you have a Kindle and switch to a different reader, that would suck (Loosing all of your books). But Kindle people can just start buying E-pubs and converting to MOBI to stop this from happening (Hopefully you've already DeDRM'd your previously bought AZW books)

speedlever · 07-20-2011, 01:02 PM

Because Amazon made it so easy to buy and d/l books to my K3, I didn't bother to convert and archive my Amazon books. Roughly half my ebooks have come from Amazon.

I'm in the process of rectifying that archiving mistake now. It's pretty much complete except for one problem child... which is exposing my lack of knowledge of calibre... amongst other things in the ebook world.

And this is not a DRM issue as few if any of my Amazon books were infected with DRM at the time of purchase/download. Most of my DRMd ebooks have come from epub purchases from other online stores.

07-20-2011, 11:00 AM	#186
speedlever Fanatic Posts: 592 Karma: 138200 Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: NC, USA Device: PW2014, PW2012, iPad Pro	Good points ApK. I retract my example. But in other, more important news, I'll have you know that this discussion is interfering with my watching of the TdF. Last edited by speedlever; 07-20-2011 at 11:04 AM.

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07-20-2011, 10:28 AM	#181
Beerman Member Posts: 24 Karma: 1286 Join Date: Jun 2011 Device: Ipad 2	The whole DRM thing (music, books, video) gets tiring. When I was a kid, we listened to AM radio (I'm old) and we had a portable cassette recorder that we used to record our favorite songs. We shared those cassettes with one another. Oh no! We stole! We also shared and gave away records we bought to others (free of course). When VHS came out, we recorded tv and movies and shared those with friends and family. Then the same with cd's and dvd's and on and on and on. So, I buy a book, talk to a friend and they say they'd like to read it so I loan them my copy. Is all this breaking the law? If not, how is buying a kindle version but later putting on my ipad or other device. Once I buy it, can't I do what I want with my property? I can park my car in front of my house, in my garage or leave it in a shopping center parking lot too. This is all just crazy greed plain and simple and people (definitely the majority) are tired of being labeled criminals. <rant off>

07-20-2011, 10:34 AM	#182
speedlever Fanatic Posts: 592 Karma: 138200 Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: NC, USA Device: PW2014, PW2012, iPad Pro	The comparable example in your case would be that your ability to do what you want with your car will depend on whether you own it or you lease it. Therein lies the crux of the argument. Seems the publishers only want to lease out their products instead of selling it outright. Or so I understand.

07-20-2011, 10:52 AM	#184
ApK Award-Winning Participant Posts: 7,389 Karma: 68329346 Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: NJ, USA Device: Kindle	I'm sorry, but this whole discussion of "rent, lease, buy" is misapplied and irrelevant. Digital intellectual property is DIFFERENT than physical goods, and you have DIFFERENT rights concerning it's use. To try to claim an entitlement to someone's IP because of what you can or can't do to a car you buy is NOT appropriate, and trying to shoehorn the terms from one to fit the other can only lead to disapointment. Fact is, whether you "buy" a paperback or an ebook, you STILL have only certain restricted licensed rights, most notably those governed by copyright law, as to what you can do with the content. Stop trying to say that because you can resell your car, you should be able to resell an ebook. It's as invalid an argument as saying that because you can breath air, you should be able to breath a paperback. If you only want the right on one because you have it on the other, then get over it, they are different things, with different properties, and it's more than reasonable that they have different rules. If, on the other hand, you believe you should have a certain right on it's own merits, as for example, I believe we should have the right to read ebooks on the device of our choice, then argue it that way, on it's merits. Laws and corporate policy can and do change all the time. Yes, the "industry" has influence in that area, but so do consumers and citizens. With our combined tax dollars and consumer spending, we can be just as effective as they are. ApK

07-20-2011, 11:12 AM	#188
speedlever Fanatic Posts: 592 Karma: 138200 Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: NC, USA Device: PW2014, PW2012, iPad Pro	Good point. I reinstate my example. Now let me get back to finish watching the... oh wait, it's already over.

07-20-2011, 11:34 AM	#189
Beerman Member Posts: 24 Karma: 1286 Join Date: Jun 2011 Device: Ipad 2	I guess in a few years it will progress to the point that when you walk out of a movie theater, you can't even discuss the movie! Yea, I know, I'm being ridiculous in order to make my point. I actually can see both sides on this issue but to me, it's very black and white. I'm just a simpleton who believes in common sense a bit too much.

07-20-2011, 12:50 PM	#194
The Terminator Retired Posts: 2,552 Karma: 37638420 Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Vancouver Island Canada Device: Kobo Touch, Optimus One (2.3), Nexus 7 (4.2)	Until this happens to E-pub I'm not going to get upset about it. This doesn't stop you from getting an E-pub, DeDRM'ing it, and converting to MOBI. Unless you have a Kindle and switch to a different reader, that would suck (Loosing all of your books). But Kindle people can just start buying E-pubs and converting to MOBI to stop this from happening (Hopefully you've already DeDRM'd your previously bought AZW books)

07-20-2011, 01:02 PM	#195
speedlever Fanatic Posts: 592 Karma: 138200 Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: NC, USA Device: PW2014, PW2012, iPad Pro	Because Amazon made it so easy to buy and d/l books to my K3, I didn't bother to convert and archive my Amazon books. Roughly half my ebooks have come from Amazon. I'm in the process of rectifying that archiving mistake now. It's pretty much complete except for one problem child... which is exposing my lack of knowledge of calibre... amongst other things in the ebook world. And this is not a DRM issue as few if any of my Amazon books were infected with DRM at the time of purchase/download. Most of my DRMd ebooks have come from epub purchases from other online stores.