"Why wired.com is wrong about ebooks"

[AGB]

Originally Posted by Prestidigitweeze

First of all, props to the OP for doing everyone's work for them. Like many people here, I haven't checked the synopsis by reading the original article in Wired (really another leisure brochure from Conde Nast, Inc. and not the tech/SF-friendly mag it once was). I'm going to do so before writing further responses.

To be fair, note-taking is required for college students and editors whether they respect books or not. The copies they receive are meant either for maximum content retention or hands-on editing.

My criticism of eReaders' (not eBooks') note-taking options is that notes will only be useful when their exact content and position in the original text can be backed up and reproduced. A person who's taking notes for educational or professional reasons can't afford to have their work vanish in an instant. We're talking about people's grades, livelihoods and futures, not hobbyist options.

It has nothing to do with "hobbyists". The solution may be strange for some but it's called "back ups".

What do you do with a written paper? Print it out and archive it physically, or do you resort to digital? What about when writing the paper - do you work on it digitally and rely on digital storage and archiving, or do you type it by hand and/or typewriter?


Btw, I usually take notes on a separate paperpad. And then when I have written what I needed the notes for, I toss them away (or burn them).

[Prestidigitweeze]

(1) I'm in the process of editing that post and had already taken out the word hobbyist precisely because it could be construed to mean dilettante, as you've taken it to mean here and which wasn't my intention at all.

(2) Since your response to my post is making certain of the same points I've just made, and since my purpose was not to dismiss note-takers or the need for backups, as others have done here, I humbly suggest that you reread it and glean my actual position before investing my words with that of some other adversary.

Backup copies aren't as necessary for physical books because books are immediately accessible in the physical sense. They don't disappear whenever your host device happens to crash.

That possibility is very real, however, for students who need to review all of their notes again before taking a test or writing a paper.

And while your lack of attachment to your own notes might seem to you to be admirably pragmatic, it is perhaps unrealistic to expect everyone to use and treat their notes exactly as you treat yours.

Originally Posted by AGB

It has nothing to do with "hobbyists". The solution may be strange for some but it's called "back ups".

What do you do with a written paper? Print it out and archive it physically, or do you resort to digital? What about when writing the paper - do you work on it digitally and rely on digital storage and archiving, or do you type it by hand and/or typewriter?

Btw, I usually take notes on a separate paperpad. And then when I have written what I needed the notes for, I toss them away (or burn them).

[aktarian]

Originally Posted by Vic333

5) I like to display all the books I've read for people to see. I also take picture of my food and make picture books out of them, which I then display on my book shelf for people to see.

Which reminds me..... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uuwh7h3hKs

[AGB]

Originally Posted by Prestidigitweeze

(1) I'm in the process of editing that post and had already taken out the word hobbyist precisely because it could be construed to mean dilettante, as you've taken it to mean here and which wasn't my intention at all.

(2) Since your response to my post is making certain of the same points I've just made, and since my purpose was not to dismiss note-takers or the need for backups, as others have done here, I humbly suggest that you reread it and glean my actual position before investing my words with that of some other adversary.

I'm not going to edit my post because you changed your mind.

Backup copies aren't as necessary for physical books because books are immediately accessible in the physical sense. They don't disappear whenever your host device happens to crash.

Again, you can have all your notes on a sd card, and another as backup. It's not hard. Besides, that way you're sure you can actually bring all of your notes without having to bring all the books. Also, you can back them up online pretty easy. Hell, if you're really lazy you can email them to yourself as a file for back up purposes.

Digital notes are also searchable, easily copied and distributed, and easily sorted by various keywords or other parameters.

That possibility is very real, however, for students who need to review all of their notes again before taking a test or writing a paper.

No it's not "very real" before taking a test. It's called "backup". Just like you'd have that paper you're writing backed up.

And while your lack of attachment to your own notes might seem to you to be admirably pragmatic, it is perhaps unrealistic to expect everyone to use and treat their notes exactly as you treat yours.

Actually, it was not to seem pragmatic. I enjoy using a paper notepad and my fountain pen (I'm a lefty and much to my surprise, a fountain pen was the answer to me stabbing the page). I use paper because it is easier to draw lines, get a quick quote and so on - on the go. But for further use I either write the thing I intended to write, or if it's a bigger project, I will type in the notes in a more or less pure form. That way my notes can much easier be searched and sorted, rather than scribbling at the corner of the newspaper, margin of the magazine and print out a pubmed article, all so I can scribble in the margins of that and have to carry it with me to have my notes.

I am fully aware that some people think modern technology is much better than anything old and vice versa. I am pointing out that the arguments you put forth for not having notes in digital form aren't rational. Just like my use of a fountain pen is only seemingly rational (lefty etc.). In reality, is just a method I have found that works for me, and I don't claim there is something inherently wrong with typing, as you seem to do for having notes in a digital format.

Oh, btw, you mention that "professionals can't afford to have it in digital form", all the while accusing me of claiming that my way is the right way (in other words, that is). The problem is, of course, that I do take notes for a living. I'm a journalist, and I happen to be able to "afford" having things in a digital format despite me taking notes for a living (among other things). By that you have actually done exactly what you accused me of doing: That your way is the only way for a professional who has to rely on his notes.

[Prestidigitweeze]

Originally Posted by AGB

I'm not going to edit my post because you changed your mind.

What's ironic is that your accusation of dishonesty itself appears dishonest. By accusing me of "changing my mind," you ignore the acknowledged intention of public revision and moderation, which is to be clear and polite for the sake of civility. This seems a rather suspect lapse of understanding. Are you forgetting the forum's context in your zeal to make accusations, or are you misrepresenting your profession in order to sound authoritative? Out of respect, I'll assume you've simply forgotten the forum-specific context of my original post.

No one asked you to "edit your post," nor did I "change my mind" about what I'd said. I merely did what any moderator on any board would prefer: Substituted a different word to make the possibility of charged misinterpretations less likely.

You appear to refuse to accept this because you wish to fight. I find it difficult to believe you haven't understood.

Your refusal to allow my explanation of my own intent as to my own words, and your subsequent rejection of my revision -- prior to your first post -- in the name of tact, is not credible. It is, rather, ad hominem barking.

You then continue this ad hominem barking with remarkable gusto:

Oh, btw, you mention that "professionals can't afford to have it in digital form", all the while accusing me of claiming that my way is the right way (in other words, that is).

Note this irony: The person who insists he's interested in sticking to a poster's original words now insists on substituting his own. Why? Because he infers that his are a more accurate representation of what the OP is thinking than what the OP has actually said as well as the subsequent explication the OP gave as to his own intentions.

AGP:

I didn't say that my way was the right way, nor that yours was wrong. I said that note-taking by writing in books and manuscripts is a standard way in which students and manuscript editors have worked traditionally. It isn't the only approved way but rather the most common way.

For that reason, common practices of students and professionals should be taken into consideration when designing a reader's note-taking software. When a device is created for the common market, common use must be considered whether it is one's own way of working or not, and whether it is the "rightest" way or not.

The presumption of superiority on my part is entirely yours. The pitch of the accusation suggests some sort of history that predates my participation on this thread.

My original post was friendly, my second, polite. Your consistent attempts to degrade the level of the conversation, and your seizing on your own suspicions and theories as to others' motives as if they were facts, don't speak well of your reliability.

For all I know, you might be a tremendous journalist, but your best side hasn't been displayed here. You've been hectoring me, some faceless guy on the internet, over harmlessly intended word choices. I doubt your readers would find that sort of thing interesting.

The pitch of your indignation has had nothing to do with anything I've said, implied or felt. You need to take responsibility for your own emotions and mindset.

And this conversation needs to return to its earlier mode of mutual good will.

[Caleb666]

Originally Posted by DMB

Reminds me of my days as a technical editor in the early 1960s (before everything went digital). All our stuff was machine set with a monotype machine, but equations had to be hand set in the centuries-old technique. The printers had only one compositor skilled in hand setting equations. Every year when he went on holiday we would get back galley proofs with a real dog's breakfast of symbols that made no sense. Computer setting has obliterated all that.

Hah! I have a Mathematical Analysis book which is set in monotype and the equations were handwritten, and I've always wondered why the hell would they do that. The book was created from lecture notes from a famous Israeli mathematician in the 60s/70s. Now I understand why.

[AGB]

Originally Posted by Prestidigitweeze

What's ironic is that your accusation of dishonesty itself appears dishonest. By accusing me of "changing my mind," you ignore the acknowledged intention of public revision and moderation, which is to be clear and polite for the sake of civility.

You countered my argument by opening with "I changed my post". It seems the only reason you made that statement and changed your post was because you changed your mind and wanted me to somehow make a concession.

This seems a rather suspect lapse of understanding for a journalist, which you've stated is your profession. Are you ignoring your training as a journalist in the service of making false accusations, or are you misrepresenting your vocation in order to sound authoritative?

Neither. The ad hominems you spew are ridiculous. You did change your mind, and thus the post. And you did so, after I had responded and made a point out of your change of heart. I don't need to misrepresent anything to deduce that you changed your mind. However, it's funny how you first claim that "professionals need to take notes in the books", and when I mention I too am a professional, albeit it in a rather different field than you, then you attack that as if you know more about journalism than I do, and you top it off, by pretending I am somehow being dishonest and misrepresenting my vocation. Seriously, here's a number. Go pick up your integrity at the door.

Out of respect, I'll assume you've simply forgotten the forum-specific context of my original post.

The "forum specific"? Are you freaking kidding me? This is in the news section. It's a thread about note taking with digital aids.

Once again, you're trying to make out that I am the one missing something.

No one asked you to "edit your post,"

True, you didn't ask explicitly, but since it was a rather prominent part of your reply to my counter, it seems it was prudent for you to make it very clear that you had changed your post.

nor did I "change my mind" about what I'd said.

You did. You explicitly went back to rephrase it. You only did so because you changed your mind of what to write. If not, you would have merely corrected typos or whatever. Not changed what you said.

I merely did what any moderator on any board would prefer: Substituted a different word to make the possibility of hurt feelings or misinterpretation less likely.

And you made it a point to tell me, rather than address what I said.

You appear to refuse to accept this because you wish to fight. I find it difficult to believe you haven't understood.

No, I just really dislike when people try to pretend that their personal preferences is how everyone - not only in their field, but in every field that even has a hint of the same - is working and doing things, and how this way is the only way and the right way. "Because, you know, I'm a professional, and therefore my personal preferences applies to any professionals"

Your refusal to allow my explanation of my own intent as to my own words, and your subsequent rejection of my revision -- prior to your first post -- in the name of tact, is not credible. It is, rather, ad hominem barking.

I'm sorry, but you accusing me of ad hominems is ridiculous given what you have just managed.

You then continue this ad hominem barking with remarkable gusto:

There is no ad hominem there.

Note this irony: The person who insists he's interested in sticking to a poster's original words now insists on substituting his own.

Say what? I am not saying I'm particular interested in sticking with particular words. I am saying that I have no desire nor interest in revising my posts because the person I counter with said post has changed his mind and make a point out of it.

Secondly, where am I substituting words? Oh, you mean I paraphrased a tiny bit of what you said, and made it clear I was paraphrasing? Yes, that surely smacks of intellectual dishonesty, doesn't it?

Why? Because he infers that his are a more accurate representation of what the OP is thinking than what the OP has actually said as well as the subsequent explication the OP gave as to his own intentions.

No, I am paraphrasing because the same quote again and again from you all the while you trying to run from it, would be boring.

You have time and time again refused to see any positive side to digital. You first tried to make an appeal to authority, by claiming "professionals", people who relied on note taking and notes, needed to have them on paper.

You then tried to seem rational by listing your preferences and fears and pass them off as a need (i.e. digital will break down, you will only have them in one place, what if the device breaks down when you are to begin a paper, and so on).

And when that too failed, you resorted to questioning how good I am at my job and other such idiocy.

I didn't say that my way was the right way, nor that yours was wrong. I said that note-taking by writing in books and manuscripts is a standard way in which students and manuscript editors have taken notes traditionally. It isn't the only approved way but rather the most common way.

Quite different from what you have said through here. At least you have now moderated it in two ways: You have limited the scope of the notion of "professionals", and you have limited the notion of digital being evil (it can fail, etc.) to "it's tradition".

For that reason, common practices of students and editors should be taken into consideration when designing a reader's note-taking software. When a device is created for the common market, common use must be considered whether it is one's own way of working or not, and whether it is the "rightest" way or not.

Yet that was not your argument. Your argument was that having a device for notes were bad. The main argument was that it could crash.

The presumption of superiority on my part is entirely yours.

No, it was pretty clear from post one.

The pitch of the accusation suggests some sort of history that predates my participation on this thread.

No it merely means I get annoyed when exposed to someone trying to declare his "professional" is the way as you did from the get-go.

My original post was friendly, my second, polite.

No it wasn't. And no to the second too.

Your consistent attempts to degrade the level of the conversation,

Although you changed your mind and changed your post, you pretty much degraded it yourself by opening the ball with the argument that you were a professional, and that we professionals needed to make notes in the books, and that "hobbyists" didn't have such needs.

and your seizing on your own suspicions and theories as to others' motives as if they were facts, don't speak well of your reliability.

My reliability is usually spot on. The reason is that I actually read what people write instead of trying to play the persecution (or victim) card, when someone disagrees with me.

You know, like you have done, while changing what you "meant" numerous times in this discussion.

For all I know, you might be a tremendous journalist, but your best side hasn't been displayed here.

I'm so sorry that I have shown you that not all journalists are so understanding and soft when it comes to their private life. Btw, nice ad hominem as I've come to expect from you.


[quite]You've hectoring me, some faceless guy on the internet, over harmlessly intended word choices.[/quote]
Yes, by all means play the victim card again.

I doubt your readers would find that sort of thing interesting.

You do? I guess you also doubt that an novel author's forum posts should be full fledged books, or that a tv presenter should talk that way going about his daily non-work business.


Oh, I thought you had finished:

The pitch of your indignation has had nothing to do with anything I've said, implied or felt. You need to take responsibility for your own emotions and mindset.

I am taking full responsibility for my emotions and "mindset". Yet another thinly veiled ad hominem.

And this conversation needs to return to its earlier mode of mutual good will.

This conversation just needs to end now that you have conceded that only in a very narrow definition of "professional" does your argument pertain, and that it only does because of "tradition", and not the claims of students and teachers and other professionals not being able to rely on technology for their notes.

Keep it up.

[Jessica Lares]

Originally Posted by astrodad

No offense to the author, but the piece reads like it was written by someone who doesn't read very much.

I agree with this.

And this is the truth about most tech blogs and their journalists. They don't get the whole e-book thing because they don't have a NEED for it. They are too busy going over HTML5, iDevices, and other gadgets and aren't the same people who will sit down and read a screen all day.

Another thing is that most of those people aren't wanting to gamble with their money on these e-books. You can either buy two books or get 20,000 songs on iTunes Match. Which do you think will win?

I think the biggest failure for e-readers is the fact that there are too many people in this world who are illiterate and can't use them. A lot of us don't have the eyesight for them either.

I think e-books are priced okay. They'll last you longer than a book, that's for sure. I'm happy that I don't have to deal with the millions of paper cuts I've gotten through the years! They'll be there even after your device dies because they're in a server.

As for using them for design purposes... Come on... Do you really only buy YELLOW books to match your YELLOW walls? I didn't think so!

[wyndslash]

Originally Posted by Jessica Lares

I agree with this.

And this is the truth about most tech blogs and their journalists. They don't get the whole e-book thing because they don't have a NEED for it. They are too busy going over HTML5, iDevices, and other gadgets and aren't the same people who will sit down and read a screen all day.

Another thing is that most of those people aren't wanting to gamble with their money on these e-books. You can either buy two books or get 20,000 songs on iTunes Match. Which do you think will win?

I think the biggest failure for e-readers is the fact that there are too many people in this world who are illiterate and can't use them. A lot of us don't have the eyesight for them either.

I think e-books are priced okay. They'll last you longer than a book, that's for sure. I'm happy that I don't have to deal with the millions of paper cuts I've gotten through the years! They'll be there even after your device dies because they're in a server.

As for using them for design purposes... Come on... Do you really only buy YELLOW books to match your YELLOW walls? I didn't think so!

which author are you speaking of? the one this link refers to (the rebuttal piece) or the author who wrote the pbooks for design purposes? xP

[Jessica Lares]

The author of the Wired piece.

[Namekuseijin]

Originally Posted by astrodad

No offense to the author, but the piece reads like it was written by someone who doesn't read very much.

that is, the majority of crackhead clickety-clickers these days.

They don't read much, but they sure like to pretend they write.

[crich70]

1) An unfinished e-book isn’t a constant reminder to finish reading it.
2) You can’t keep your books all in one place.
3) Notes in the margins help you think.
4) E-books are positioned as disposable, but aren’t priced that way.
5) E-books can’t be used for interior design.

My answers to the original points from the wired article.
1. Granted that you don't see an unfinished ebook lying round but people tend to ignore pbooks that they haven't finished reading too.
2. If you have more than 3,500 books you can't keep them all on one device, but there are these things called DVD's which can hold 1000's of book files.
3. Written notes only help you if you can read your own handwriting.
4. Pbooks were once very cheap and mass produced as well (after the invention of moving type) you can still see books in used bookstores that originally sold for under a $1.00 but which now are several dollars at least.
5. Books shouldn't be just something that dresses up a room anyway. A coffee table book might stimulate a conversation but the first task of a book is to entertain or inform I think.

[Toastedpine]

Depending on the book, there might not actually be enough room to discuss things with the author. Some classic anthology books have font-sizes only suitable for pixies and ants.

There are ways to markup a book without needing a journal, or irking the next person you resell the book to though. Here is a link as an example:
http://www.coolhunting.com/design/transparent-pos.php

I don't think the ability to lend a book only once for 14 or even 21 days is good enough. When you give someone an old book, it stays with the other person unless they give it back. I'd be willing to pay a small transfer fee for giving my ebook copy to someone else just because someone has to build and maintain a system to make such a thing possible.

Ironically, Amazon and their ability to retroactively delete ebooks without your consent seems to me like the company with the infrastructure most suited to make such a thing a reality. Of course, ebook sellers could simply rely on the honor system, but that would need a majority of customers to be completely honest most of the time.

There's just something to be said about giving someone a book out of your own collection instead of buying them a copy or sending them a gift card.

[Richey79]

Originally Posted by OtterBooks

From the first article: "And what about the serendipity of sharing your thoughts, and being informed by the thoughts of others, from the messages in shared books?"

Yes, serendipity is exactly what I feel when I buy a used book and discover someone has written "OMG so true" and "??????" next to entire paragraphs they've underlined. No wait, not serendipity, rage.

I once bought a copy of some Chekhov short stories second-hand.

In the last few pages someone had scrawled, in a type-face large enough to cover a double-page spread and using a fat-tip purple felt pen, 'She likes a piece of cake, to clear her belly-ache'.

I don't think the loss of such textual analysis is a great price to pay for migration to the digital age.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by crich70

My answers to the original points from the wired article.
1. Granted that you don't see an unfinished ebook lying round but people tend to ignore pbooks that they haven't finished reading too.

How do you know that? Most people I know do not ignore them. The books are still in rather visible reading-piles. Most people I know read more than one book at a time.

4. Pbooks were once very cheap and mass produced as well (after the invention of moving type) you can still see books in used bookstores that originally sold for under a $1.00 but which now are several dollars at least.

Paper backs are still cheap and mass produced. And lot of people treat them as disposable.