Sorry Kindle, You're Not Invited

[RockdaMan]

Originally Posted by khalleron

What I object to is the people who declaim *loudly* that their choice is perfect and anyone who chooses differently is stupid.

All that you said and including those that say that a device is imperfect because it lacks library e-book access.

There are no 'losers' - despite some people's tendencies to choose sides. Everyone who reads is a winner

100x this.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by RockdaMan

No. They are not irrelevant, they form an important niche in the ebook market. There is a market for their wares.

Most e-book users don't do library books though.

Have you actually taken a look recently at the waiting lists at the libraries? If you had, you'd find out that a lot more people use the eBooks at the library then you think.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by khalleron

My little rural library didn't have ebooks two years ago when I bought my Sony, so that wasn't a deciding factor in choosing that over a Kindle.

Now it does, and so now it would be. I LOVE library books, I always have a hold list.

Everyone chooses a reader based on what is important to them. Some, who can afford it, have more than one so that they can have access to everything.

What I object to is the people who declaim *loudly* that their choice is perfect and anyone who chooses differently is stupid. That only *their* chosen device 'matters' - despite all the evidence to the contrary.

Sure, there are more Kindles in the US (probably not the world yet) than Sonys. Or Nooks. Or Kobos.

But put all the epub-compliant readers together with the growing public library access and you have something potentially formidable.

There are no 'losers' - despite some people's tendencies to choose sides. Everyone who reads is a winner.

Very well put!

[spellbanisher]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Are you enjoying being pedantic?

I'm sorry, I forgot to use the appropriate smiley to indicate facetiousness. Oh, and only a pedantic person calls another person pedantic.

[mldavis2]

There's no question that DRM is a big nuisance. My wife has a Sony, I have a Kindle. She can read DRM'd ePubs but can't (legally?) share them with me. I can read DRM'd Mobipockets on my K3 but can't share them with her. We could, of course simply swap eReaders but that causes other issues timewise. But through Amazon (and perhaps other vendors), we share one account and could potentially (with vendor blessings) share those books IF we bought another Kindle, but that's another $129 or so.

DRM is supposed to prevent unauthorized pirating of eBooks which become "fair game" to potentially thousands of pirates on online sharing sites. I can understand why authors and publishers are trying to limit illegal distribution. But DRM goes way too far in the other direction. A pBook may be shared among a group of friends perhaps up to a dozen times. Nearly half of my reading is from borrowed pBooks. pBooks I purchase, I loan in exchange and my friends and I coordinate on titles we want to share. pBooks are re-bound and used by libraries for decades, loaned out to potentially hundreds of readers. DRM'd library books are now being considered for a 26-loan limit by some publishers, thus requiring additional expense by the library to renew their loan 'rights.'

So publishers whine about the 'costs' involved in creating eBook formats. I can't believe that it is any more difficult to create a generic eBook format than it is to use electronic typesetters to publish pBooks. I base that on the fact that I am a proofreader for Project Gutenberg and I know the formatting rules that they use to prepare OCR-scanned print into their software to create the various formats they offer (ePub, HTML, QiOO Mobile, Kindle (Mobipocket), Plain Text UTF-8). Calibre does those conversions on the fly. The text for pBooks is handled electronically and there is absolutely NO excuse for not being able to publish multiple eBook formats simultaneously as PJ does for free.

So it is a matter of political and/or economic control that publishers refuse to accommodate all formats. There is no excuse other than because it involves virtually no additional 'formatting.' There is no excuse for any of these platforms or publishers not to open up to a common format or provide simple software upgrades to allow more people to share files.

The solution is unclear. If all pirate sites fell under legal jurisdiction of one country, then prosecution of pirate sites would be a goal, and sharing would be limited to user-to-user peers, not potentially the rest of the world. What I see happening now is that publishers see a big cut in pBook sales and they are trying to make up for pBook pending obsolescence by gouging eBook readers with unjustified pricing (remember, no paper, no printing, no shipping and handling, no shelf space, no cost of returns and re-handling).

For the time being, Amazon meets my needs and I've found almost nothing that is available in eBook format that they do not have or that I can't find from multiple eFormat online sources. Absent an eBook version, they will usually have the pBook either paperback or used. So far my inability to check out eBooks from the library is a non-issue, but I have no qualms about stripping DRM from the library ePub on my wife's Sony so I can read it on my very own K3. That is an allowed transfer under both the Amazon and the library 'code of ethics' even if it does violate (perhaps) legal abuse of DRM intent.

I have never, nor will I ever send a DRM-stripped copy of a book over the internet in violation of that trust, but in exchange I would ask publishers to treat us as adults and make their products available to all formats. To do otherwise is to limit distribution, I would guess, far in excess of illegal distribution.

Most book fanatics (who, me? ) are adults. The kids who would think little of pirating are too busy playing video games and texting friends to be much of a drain on profits, I would think. So lets quit playing games with eFormats and give us a functional equivalent of pBook sharing.

[RockdaMan]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Have you actually taken a look recently at the waiting lists at the libraries? If you had, you'd find out that a lot more people use the eBooks at the library then you think.

I think a lot of people use them (I'm among them), but that they aren't "most e-book reader users".

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by ApK

I don't know what library you use, but your side profile thingy says you're in Denver? Denver Public Library does:
http://downloadmedia.denverlibrary.o...StartGuide.htm

MP3 audio books are non DRMed and I'm pretty sure that the way OMC handles video to mobile devices is on the honor system as well.

Mp3 audio books are not under discussion and I'd not class them as digital downloads. We're talking about ebooks, please stay on topic.

[RockdaMan]

Originally Posted by mldavis2

My wife has a Sony, I have a Kindle.

Give it some time, your marriage could still work out.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by kennyc

Mp3 audio books are not under discussion and I'd not class them as digital downloads. We're talking about ebooks, please stay on topic.

I emphatically disagree. It's totally on topic. Libraries include in their digital collection, books, music, movies and more in several formats. The end user lending agreements are typically the same or very similar, and in many cases, it's the very same infratructure that lends them all.
The point under discussion was that if there is no technological enforcement of the check out period, wouldn't everybody just start stealing library ebooks, keeping them forever?
Evidence to the contrary is that plenty of what the library lends has no technological enforcement in the first place and the library has no problem with that.

And as for audiobooks not being digital downloads...WTF?

[karunaji]

Originally Posted by ApK

Legal or not, ethical or not, most people will never be legally hassled for stripping DRM, but CREATORS OF DRM REMOVING SOFTWARE GET SUED REGULARLY!

That's even more reason for us to use these products so that their sacrifices are not done in vain. The developers are like Prometheus in the Greek mythology who had to suffer wrath of Gods for giving fire to people.

I'd hate for any unwarranted heat to be brought down on a great free-ware project like Calibre! Aside from the risk of bad publicity, even a frivolous and merit-less legal issue could be a terrible drain for the Calibre team.

Hmm, the root cause of the DRM removal is that Kindle does not support a particular DRM scheme that libraries use. It would be a shame for Kindle to get sued for encouraging DRM removal. Or maybe not.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by karunaji

That's even more reason for us to use these products so that their sacrifices are not done in vain. The developers are like Prometheus in the Greek mythology who had to suffer wrath of Gods for giving fire to people.

The only point I was making is that Calibre is NOT one of 'those products' and it would serve no ones best interests to have a bunch of forum posts that mistakenly say it IS come up in some overly litigious watchdog's Google searches.

ApK

[ApK]

Originally Posted by khalleron

There are no 'losers' - despite some people's tendencies to choose sides. Everyone who reads is a winner.

Unless you're in some kind of reading competition. 'Cuz then if everyone won, it couldn't be a very satisfying competition.

[Gwen Morse]

Originally Posted by ApK

Mobipocket has versions for Blackberry and Windows, which I figure will work on tablets running those platforms, and according to this link, iReader will work on Android.

And I could have sworn that library DRM mobi books will work on without deDRMing if some bits are tweaked, but now I couldn't get it to work and I wonder if I dreamed it.

ApK

I can confirm iReader for Android works with Mobipocket books. It's an awesome little app.

[blue_skies]

Originally Posted by kennyc

But you have to understand Amazon wants to SELL YOU BOOKS.

Well Amazon will not sell me any books, unless I can read them from the library first. I have wasted way too much money in my lifetime buying books I did not like. Now I will not buy it unless I can read it first and determine that it is a book I would like to own. Same with CDs and DVDs at this point too. If I am unable to borrow a book I'm interested in, I just move on to something else.

If Amazon supported library borrowing out of the box, I would buy a Kindle in a heartbeat and also buy them for my parents who are voracious readers. They always have books from the library, but would not be interested in anything complicated to be able to read ebooks from the library on a Kindle.

Amazon would make a lot more money from me if they supported library lending.

[covingtoncat73]

Originally Posted by blue_skies

Well Amazon will not sell me any books, unless I can read them from the library first. I have wasted way too much money in my lifetime buying books I did not like. Now I will not buy it unless I can read it first and determine that it is a book I would like to own. Same with CDs and DVDs at this point too. If I am unable to borrow a book I'm interested in, I just move on to something else.

If Amazon supported library borrowing out of the box, I would buy a Kindle in a heartbeat and also buy them for my parents who are voracious readers. They always have books from the library, but would not be interested in anything complicated to be able to read ebooks from the library on a Kindle.

Amazon would make a lot more money from me if they supported library lending.

Amazon wants to sell Kindles, not books. If they wanted to sell books, they would sell ePubs as well as Mobis. Same with B&N. They want to sell Nooks, not books. They may sell ePubs but, due to DRM, they only work on Nooks.