Copyright is Out of Sight - Page 18

elcreative · 02-22-2011, 06:22 PM

Give it up spellbanisher... you're wasting you're time with a self-confessed anarchist-capitalist - whatever that's supposed to be... you can't argue/discuss and deal logically with "true" believers because they know they're right...

Quote:

Originally Posted by spellbanisher

I don't even really know what this means. We don't need a for-profit industry, at least as it applies to art. Civilization is based on excess. We also don't need skyscrapers or air conditioning or airplanes. For-profit industry creates excess wealth, which enables investment in other industries and other thingamajigs.

spellbanisher · 02-22-2011, 06:36 PM

Just think about this. More books were created in the twentieth century than in all previous centuries combined. Heck, more books were created in the nineteenth century than all previous centuries combined. Why do you think that is? The industrial revolution. The emergence of fossil fuel technology also freed up a lot of people.

I think we can agree on one point though. Just because things have been done a certain way doesn't mean they should continue to be done that way. Most people seem to have a teleological view of history. They believe we are where we are today because of a continuous line of progress throughout history. This is not true at all. There have been two regimes in world history, the solar energy regime and the fossil fuel regime. Before coal technology all nations were subject to the Malthusian constraints. The world economy was base in the Indian Ocean world all the way into the 1830's. Europe did develop fossil fuel technology, but that had more to do with contingency than necessity. In Europe, there are lots of rivers and coal was near the surface. In china and India, there weren't many rivers and coal was deep underground. Initial steam engines were too inefficient to be used in industry and coal was too heavy to be transported over land, most of which was unpaved. In europe, however, coal mines were usually near rivers. They could stick the coal in a barge and sail it down river. Overtime people tinkering in their garages were able to perfect the technology, and wala, the fossil fuel regime was born. It also helped that in Great Britain they kicked all the peasants off the lands through the Enclosure Acts. This enabled them to consolidate land and use it for dedicated purposes; it also created excess labor. In China and India no such things happened.

It must also be remembered that potential of an economy is measured by its energy source. A fossil-fueled powered tractor can do more work than a 100 human beings. This is also where most capitalists err. They think that the most important thing is capital, whereas physicists and environmental historians know that the most important thing is energy.

My point? Most of us have an ideological viewpoint of history, I would say even eurocentric. This influences our viewpoints towards many of our institutions, makes us unquestioning and falsely attribute Western Culture to many achievements that were actually a result of contingency. That is why i try never to be complacent towards any idea.

spellbanisher · 02-22-2011, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elcreative

Give it up spellbanisher... you're wasting you're time with a self-confessed anarchist-capitalist - whatever that's supposed to be... you can't argue/discuss and deal logically with "true" believers because they know they're right...

Give what up? I'm not trying to proselytize Giggleton. I'm having fun. I'm enjoying having a discussion with someone who isn't a cynical or self-righteous(Okay, he's a little self-righteous, but not in a mean or disdainful way). Not everything is about winning and losing.

spellbanisher · 02-22-2011, 06:45 PM

Giggleton isn't an enemy barbarian that i must vanquish or convert. My time isn't so precious that I have no time for those who won't agree with me. I'm not so right-eous that I grace only the worthy with my presence.

Giggleton · 02-22-2011, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spellbanisher

I don't even really know what this means. We don't need a for-profit industry, at least as it applies to art. Civilization is based on excess. We also don't need skyscrapers or air conditioning or airplanes. For-profit industry creates excess wealth, which enables investment in other industries and other thingamajigs.

It means when we have star trek style food replicators, do we still need copyright? With robots to do all the labor, do we still need wealth?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism

Grimm · 02-22-2011, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giggleton

Then why all the fuss about DRM and things? And why are some prosecuted for disabling DRM or hosting knowledge on websites. Why is THIS WEBSITE not allowed to host anything and everything that it wants??

This isn't about the next year's profits for some random company, this is about the future of the planet and those who will choose to inhabit it. This is about stopping the endless cycle of destruction that we have thrust upon ourselves by refusing to recognize ourselves as integral parts of the whole.

Berkeley, right?

spellbanisher · 02-22-2011, 07:07 PM

[QUOTE=Giggleton;1410148]It means when we have star trek style food replicators, do we still need copyright? With robots to do all the labor, do we still need wealth?

If we have star trek style food replicators and robots to do all our work we would not need copyright. Just remember that there will always be a few megalomaniacal pricks who need grandeur and power and to control everyone else, who need a sense of superiority.

The problem with utopias is that they transform us into sheep. We assume everyone else is well-intentioned and good, when in fact there are always wolves among us. When we become sheep, the wolves feast.

That is why capitalism works, in all its hideousness and irrationality. Capitalism turns us all into wolves, and wolves don't mess with each other. (Unless they are fighting over a foxy female wolf.)

Namekuseijin · 02-22-2011, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giggleton

It means when we have star trek style food replicators, do we still need copyright? With robots to do all the labor, do we still need wealth?

Dreamland. More likely that by chance you'll one day wake up in a pool of snot and realize mankind is not needed anymore, aside from providing a singular AI sentience with plenty of cheap neural network power...

spellbanisher · 02-22-2011, 07:28 PM

To be fair to Giggleton, most people are addressing him as if he is a Marxist. He is not. Anarcho-Capitalists are not for the abolition of property, just the coercive legal element. In general i agree with the anarcho-capitalist ethic, but i don't see how it can ever be implemented for very long. Consolidation of power has always been the historical norm; that is why there have been so many empires in history. The state is just one expression of the this tendency. Unfortunately, the concentration of wealth and the concentration of power have always gone hand in hand.

Grimm · 02-22-2011, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giggleton

If someone wants to charge for their work that is fine. But that does not mean I should be forced to pay for it. I view pricetags on knowledge as simply a reminder of the effort involved in the production of knowledge.

If you refuse to pay for it, you have no right it. It is not for YOU to decide it should be free, that decision lies with the creator of said work.

Grimm · 02-22-2011, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giggleton

I really don't see the problems, I can copy anything I want and give it away to everyone else right?

Pay who you can when you can, if we really wanted Utopia we would have it.

Who are you to decide when or what someone should get paid for the fruits of their labors?

Grimm · 02-22-2011, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giggleton

It means when we have star trek style food replicators, do we still need copyright? With robots to do all the labor, do we still need wealth?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism

Making an arguement based on hypothetical situations that are, at least for the foreseeable future impossible does nothing to further your position other than to make it look desperate.

spellbanisher · 02-22-2011, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grimm

Who are you to decide when or what someone should get paid for the fruits of their labors?

I think the point Giggleton ultimately is trying to make is that if someone has a piece of information you really can't tell them what to do or not to do with that information. With physical books there were already constraints on copying and distribution. With the internet there is no such constraints. The same question could be asked: who are you to decide what someone can and can't do with information they possess? Culture is shared, blah blah blah.

I feel like this has already been discussed. i don't mind having the same discussions, but I need time between them. You wouldn't read the same book again and again and again and again without some time in-between each rereading. I need time before my I have this discussion again.

As it is, to quote chief Joseph, I am tired. My heart is sick and sad(okay it isn't really sick or sad, but lets be dramatic here). From where the sun now stands, I will post no more forever(just on this thread).

spellbanisher · 02-22-2011, 08:20 PM

This thread is officially dead. And I'm a liar.

spellbanisher · 02-22-2011, 08:23 PM

If this thread continues any longer, it will officially be a zombie thread. And we all know that zombies eat brains.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
New update in sight	mgmueller	Spring Design Alex	3	09-19-2010 07:05 PM
Is a hyperlink editor in sight?	HarryT	Sigil	2	08-12-2010 08:18 AM
In Copyright? - Copyright Renewal Database launched	Alexander Turcic	News	26	07-09-2008 09:36 AM
Government US Copyright Office: Report on Orphan Works. US Copyright Office. PDF	Nate the great	Other Books	0	01-03-2008 07:16 PM

02-22-2011, 06:36 PM	#257
spellbanisher Guru Posts: 826 Karma: 6566849 Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Bay Area Device: kindle keyboard, kindle fire hd, S4, Nook hd+	Just think about this. More books were created in the twentieth century than in all previous centuries combined. Heck, more books were created in the nineteenth century than all previous centuries combined. Why do you think that is? The industrial revolution. The emergence of fossil fuel technology also freed up a lot of people. I think we can agree on one point though. Just because things have been done a certain way doesn't mean they should continue to be done that way. Most people seem to have a teleological view of history. They believe we are where we are today because of a continuous line of progress throughout history. This is not true at all. There have been two regimes in world history, the solar energy regime and the fossil fuel regime. Before coal technology all nations were subject to the Malthusian constraints. The world economy was base in the Indian Ocean world all the way into the 1830's. Europe did develop fossil fuel technology, but that had more to do with contingency than necessity. In Europe, there are lots of rivers and coal was near the surface. In china and India, there weren't many rivers and coal was deep underground. Initial steam engines were too inefficient to be used in industry and coal was too heavy to be transported over land, most of which was unpaved. In europe, however, coal mines were usually near rivers. They could stick the coal in a barge and sail it down river. Overtime people tinkering in their garages were able to perfect the technology, and wala, the fossil fuel regime was born. It also helped that in Great Britain they kicked all the peasants off the lands through the Enclosure Acts. This enabled them to consolidate land and use it for dedicated purposes; it also created excess labor. In China and India no such things happened. It must also be remembered that potential of an economy is measured by its energy source. A fossil-fueled powered tractor can do more work than a 100 human beings. This is also where most capitalists err. They think that the most important thing is capital, whereas physicists and environmental historians know that the most important thing is energy. My point? Most of us have an ideological viewpoint of history, I would say even eurocentric. This influences our viewpoints towards many of our institutions, makes us unquestioning and falsely attribute Western Culture to many achievements that were actually a result of contingency. That is why i try never to be complacent towards any idea.

02-22-2011, 06:45 PM	#259
spellbanisher Guru Posts: 826 Karma: 6566849 Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Bay Area Device: kindle keyboard, kindle fire hd, S4, Nook hd+	Giggleton isn't an enemy barbarian that i must vanquish or convert. My time isn't so precious that I have no time for those who won't agree with me. I'm not so right-eous that I grace only the worthy with my presence.

02-22-2011, 07:07 PM	#262
spellbanisher Guru Posts: 826 Karma: 6566849 Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Bay Area Device: kindle keyboard, kindle fire hd, S4, Nook hd+	[QUOTE=Giggleton;1410148]It means when we have star trek style food replicators, do we still need copyright? With robots to do all the labor, do we still need wealth? If we have star trek style food replicators and robots to do all our work we would not need copyright. Just remember that there will always be a few megalomaniacal pricks who need grandeur and power and to control everyone else, who need a sense of superiority. The problem with utopias is that they transform us into sheep. We assume everyone else is well-intentioned and good, when in fact there are always wolves among us. When we become sheep, the wolves feast. That is why capitalism works, in all its hideousness and irrationality. Capitalism turns us all into wolves, and wolves don't mess with each other. (Unless they are fighting over a foxy female wolf.)

02-22-2011, 07:28 PM	#264
spellbanisher Guru Posts: 826 Karma: 6566849 Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Bay Area Device: kindle keyboard, kindle fire hd, S4, Nook hd+	To be fair to Giggleton, most people are addressing him as if he is a Marxist. He is not. Anarcho-Capitalists are not for the abolition of property, just the coercive legal element. In general i agree with the anarcho-capitalist ethic, but i don't see how it can ever be implemented for very long. Consolidation of power has always been the historical norm; that is why there have been so many empires in history. The state is just one expression of the this tendency. Unfortunately, the concentration of wealth and the concentration of power have always gone hand in hand.

02-22-2011, 08:20 PM	#269
spellbanisher Guru Posts: 826 Karma: 6566849 Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Bay Area Device: kindle keyboard, kindle fire hd, S4, Nook hd+	This thread is officially dead. And I'm a liar.

02-22-2011, 08:23 PM	#270
spellbanisher Guru Posts: 826 Karma: 6566849 Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Bay Area Device: kindle keyboard, kindle fire hd, S4, Nook hd+	If this thread continues any longer, it will officially be a zombie thread. And we all know that zombies eat brains.