WTF do publishers think they're doing ?

[rogue_librarian]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

What happens if there's an ebook? Thus far, it's a moot point, as Rowling has refused to license ebook editions.

Yeah, that must be why there aren't any Potter ebooks on the internet. (Down, sarcasm, down! Bad boy!)

If she recants, who will issue them? Scholastic? Bloomsbury? Someone else entirely?

Why not the publisher that also sells physical books? Or one of their subsidiaries? If you want to read "Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone" (or the GBP/USD exchange rate is in your favor) you buy at Bloomsbury. If it's "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone" you're after (complete with Americanized spelling and removing a few British oddities, I presume) do business with Scholastic.

What I'm asking for, really, is not to treat ebooks any differently from physical ones. Apparently that's too much to ask for.

[rogue_librarian]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

For ebooks, that equation changes.

I don't see why, exactly. Or at least why it does have to be that way. If I buy an ebook at amazon.uk and they "ship" it to me (if instantly), how is that fundamentally different? It's still a UK sale, and I'm fine with that.

Trade is increasingly global.

Yes, and even more so with digital goods, because the pesky delivery issues disappear. Which is why the continued and obvious attempts at geographical market segmentation are so frustrating.

If you want to offer your international bestseller here, you'll have to cut a deal to have it issued in our country by one of our publishers, so that they get a piece of the action.

How would that work? What's "here" mean in an international context anyway? If there is a book available on, say, Amazon, not geo-restricted in any way, what can the government of Absurdistan do about it?

This already happens in multi-national manufacturing, where there is political pressure to source components for various things from local suppliers in countries affected. Aircraft and automobiles are examples.

True, but, boy do you have delivery (after-sale support, etc. etc.) issues there. In short, can't do business without a local presence of sorts. This is not true for digital goods.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by rogue_librarian

Indeed. The current status quo is by no means a given. Why am I allowed to buy physical books and re-export them (all on the up and up, sellers will ship them to me), but not ebooks? It really wouldn't take all that much to change that.

The motivation for it is simple. There is no additional cost for shipping an electronic copy and there is no way to add custom to an electronic copy. That is most likely the motivation for having different rules.

[Anke Wehner]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

If you have a workable suggestion for what publishers can do now to address this, beyond "contract for world wide ebook rights when they acquire a title" (which is likely what they are doing now if they have any sense). I'd love to hear it.

Would paper book/ebook bundles work to get around it? Maybe something like a one-use individual code printed in each of the physical books do allow the first buyer download of the same work as an ebook.
Physical books may be sold worldwide, after all...

[rogue_librarian]

It's an interesting idea, but I don't think publishers would go for it. They'd still hope to be able to sell you an additional copy, and just imagine you could pass the book on (give away, or worse, sell it) and keep the digital copy for yourself (or sell the digital copy / redeeming code only).

Also, I'm buying ebooks precisely because I don't want any more physical books (I have a large enough library already, thank you very much). This wouldn't work for people like me.

[Anke Wehner]

Well, they could make the bundle more expensive, if they wanted to. Since I prefer ebooks already, and would be able to make use of the paper copy (e.g. by giving it away)... well, it would be better than only having the option of buying the paper book or pirating the ebook.

I got an ereader due to space restrictions, too, so I'd certainly prefer to get only the ebook, but, well, I am looking for loopholes to get around georestrictions here.

I guess I'll just go and support Baen, what with them putting CDs in their book containing the entire series the book in question is part of, and everything else, and hope other publishers get more customer-friendly in future.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by rogue_librarian

Define "simple". The EU, e.g. could do it with a stroke of the (legal) pen by passing a regulation.

And what would be involved in getting the EU to do that? Like I asked before, what's involved in changing a law where you live?

The regulation may be simple: getting it passed is not.

Yes, and publishers are doing their darndest to keep 'em that way.

And they should do what instead?

Thank you for this wonderful example of applied omphaloskepsis.

You're welcome.

Too big to fail? Yeah, I've heard that one before.

Too big to fail from this cause. Lots of other things out that that are more likely to kill them.
______
Dennis

[rogue_librarian]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

And what would be involved in getting the EU to do that?

A lot of lobbying. Whom are we kidding? As I'v said, it needs to be seen as an issue first.

[Kali Yuga]

What, exactly, is the law supposed to do?

It is already legally possible for the UK retailer to sell the ebook in Europe -- as long as the contracts allow it. Is the EU going to void hundreds of thousands of contracts?

And if they do, who will get the rights? If I sign a contract with different branches of Penguin in the UK, France and Germany, who gets the international English rights? Do they all get it?

What if the contracts are for the UK and the US, but nowhere else yet? Neither one has been specifically granted the international rights, and EU law won't change this.

Further, in many cases it's the retailer that's the problem. Amazon is willing to sell ebooks internationally; Waterstones and Barnes & Noble are not. Will the EU also write a law that forces retailers to sell anywhere in the EU? And then to force publishers to make their content available internationally?

I really don't see this happening. If it ever did, by the time they were actually able to pass any such laws, the availability issues will probably wind up being solved -- especially if this market is anywhere near as lucrative as some folks speculate.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by rogue_librarian

Yeah, that must be why there aren't any Potter ebooks on the internet. (Down, sarcasm, down! Bad boy!)

I was referring to legitimate editions...

Why not the publisher that also sells physical books? Or one of their subsidiaries?

In the mentioned case, it might be the print publisher(s), or someone else entirely - I can imagine Amazon making an offer to do an exclusive ebook edition, sold only through Amazon. It would all depend upon what sort of deal Rowling might accept.

If you want to read "Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone" (or the GBP/USD exchange rate is in your favor) you buy at Bloomsbury. If it's "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone" you're after (complete with Americanized spelling and removing a few British oddities, I presume) do business with Scholastic.

So you suggest each publisher having ebook rights in their territory, which puts us right back where we began, save that nobody has a problem with the arrangement? I don't see the reasons why folks have a problem with that sort of arrangement now disappearing.

People have problems with that sort of arrangement now because part of what they are licensing is exclusive rights in their territory. If the ebook is available from multiple publishers, and any customer anywhere in the world can get the book from any of them, that exclusivity goes out the window, along with a major competitive edge. Publishers, like other content providers, compete on the strength of their catalog, and the fact that only they have a particular piece of content.

What I'm asking for, really, is not to treat ebooks any differently from physical ones. Apparently that's too much to ask for.

At the moment, it appears so. But this is not entirely the fault of the publishers, and not entirely under their control. As I asked earlier, what would you have the publishers do about it?
______
Dennis

[elcreative]

And the retailer is supposed to say OK we won't bother selling your books when the Publisher says if you continue to sell in breech of our georestrictions then you will not get stock... Amazon actually does have georestrictions in force but leaves it up to customers to decide what to do... stock on AmazonUK, AmazonUS, AmazonDE etc is NOT identical...

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

Further, in many cases it's the retailer that's the problem. Amazon is willing to sell ebooks internationally; Waterstones and Barnes & Noble are not. Will the EU also write a law that forces retailers to sell anywhere in the EU? And then to force publishers to make their content available internationally?

I really don't see this happening. If it ever did, by the time they were actually able to pass any such laws, the availability issues will probably wind up being solved -- especially if this market is anywhere near as lucrative as some folks speculate.

[queentess]

Originally Posted by rogue_librarian

Indeed. The current status quo is by no means a given. Why am I allowed to buy physical books and re-export them (all on the up and up, sellers will ship them to me), but not ebooks? It really wouldn't take all that much to change that.

Define "simple". The EU, e.g. could do it with a stroke of the (legal) pen by passing a regulation.

I never said anything about not questioning "the given". It's just not nearly as easy to change a law as you think it should be. It takes only a stroke of a pen in the same way a marriage is only saying "I do". There's all the lead-up to the event, then maintaining the new system after the event.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by rogue_librarian

Indeed. The current status quo is by no means a given. Why am I allowed to buy physical books and re-export them (all on the up and up, sellers will ship them to me), but not ebooks? It really wouldn't take all that much to change that.

I do not think you are allowed to do that. The publisher do not have the right to sell the book in your country. I suppose it depends on the local law what holds for shops/sellers. I remember discussions about grey import and some time ago in London there were only one or two shops were you could buy American editions of science fiction-books and none of these shops were a big chain.

[rogue_librarian]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

So you suggest each publisher having ebook rights in their territory, which puts us right back where we began, save that nobody has a problem with the arrangement?

In a way yes, only I'm suggesting to allow exports as well, just the way we currently have with pbooks. I can mail order a book in London (point of sale: UK) and they'll send it to me. Why can't I do the same with an ebook?

Publishers, like other content providers, compete on the strength of their catalog, and the fact that only they have a particular piece of content.

I don't see how not offering a particular book for sale, at all, gives you a competitive edge, to be honest. At this point we (well, I) are not complaining about price but sheer availability. Many books are not locally available in electronic form (legally) for any price. I suppose I could buy them the next time I'm in the US and personally export them on my thumb drive ...

Originally Posted by tompe

I do not think you are allowed to do that. The publisher do not have the right to sell the book in your country.

They don't. They sell it in theirs, and I subsequently export it. I used to do that with books all the time.

I remember discussions about grey import and some time ago in London there were only one or two shops were you could buy American editions of science fiction-books and none of these shops were a big chain.

That's an entirely different story. No, it's not legal to re-import foreign editions en masse for selling them. But as a consumer you're welcome to do so for your own needs.