WTF do publishers think they're doing ?

[objectman]

If you ask me, the publishers are shooting themselves in the foot. A basic Google search for the title of a book that is not available in my country has many links to non-legal sources.

That frustration (of not being able to buy an ebook in your country OR finding that a REAL book is cheaper and shipped free) combined with the ease of "finding" the book sitting right there in a Google search will obliterate the whole industry if it's not careful.

The middleman's time of selling CDs, DVDs, and now books may have come to an end, but you guys were warned and had plenty of time to come up with a plan.

Tick, tock ...

[Andrew H.]

Originally Posted by objectman

If you ask me, the publishers are shooting themselves in the foot. A basic Google search for the title of a book that is not available in my country has many links to non-legal sources.

The publishers aren't responsible for geographic restrictions. They can't sell what they don't own.

The middleman's time of selling CDs, DVDs, and now books may have come to an end, but you guys were warned and had plenty of time to come up with a plan.

Tick, tock ...

Umm, no. People are buying content like crazy from Amazon, from Apple...even from WalMart.com. People buying CDs, DVDs, and books directly from the author are a very small group.

And nonlegal sources aren't just cutting out the middleman. They are also cutting out the author

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by objectman

If you ask me, the publishers are shooting themselves in the foot. A basic Google search for the title of a book that is not available in my country has many links to non-legal sources.

What would you have the publishers do?

I'm an author. I write a manuscript. I interest an agent, who attempts to place my manuscript with a US publisher. I'm lucky, and my agent succeeds. The publisher offers a contract to publish my book in the US.

So far, so good. What about elsewhere? My publisher may not have subsidiaries in other countries, and even if it does, those subsidiaries are independent entities. The fact that the US division chose to publish the book is no guarantee they will see it as something they can sell.

I've been a good boy and said my prayers every night, and God passes a miracle to order: my book gets interest from foreign publishers. A British publisher contracts to do a UK edition. French, German, and Spanish publishers contract to issue translations in their markets. Each has licensed the exclusive right to publish and sell the book in their territory.

Okay, what about ebooks? Those are cross-border by definition, because the Internet is world-wide, and there is no physical reason someone on this side of the world can't access a book published on the other side.

There are legal reasons. Does that publisher on the other side of the world have the right to sell the book on this side of the world? Chances are good they do not, and attempting to do so will be illegal. It's not their fault, as they can't sell what they don't have rights to.

Given the world wide nature of the Internet, going forward, I think we'll see more publishers explicitly contracting for world wide ebook rights when they offer a contract to publish a book, precisely to get around those issues. But the vast majority of back catalog is issued under contracts that do not grant the publisher world wide rights. Some are issued under contracts written back before ebooks even existed. (There have been some interesting flaps as outfits noted this and decided to contract with the authors or author's estates to sell ebook editions. The existing publishers weren't happy, but their contracts did not cover erights.)

In such cases, you see geo-restrictions, as the ebook publisher simply doesn't have the legal right to offer the book for sale where you are. What can they do about it? Not much, unless they can renegotiate the contract to get world wide erights. That may happen, but it will take time, and such efforts will be "top sellers first".

So you find yourself either resorting to proxy servers to hide your actual location when you make a purchase, or going to the darknet to get the book. The publishers are likely well aware that is happening, but there is no quick fix. We are dealing with the legacy of a legal structure and contracts that did not envision ebooks or the internet.
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Dennis

[rogue_librarian]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

... my book gets interest from foreign publishers. A British publisher contracts to do a UK edition. French, German, and Spanish publishers contract to issue translations in their markets.

Ah, but I'm happy to buy the US edition, just the way it is. No further editing, translation, nothing. I'm prepared to pay the full asking price. And that works: I can order any book from Amazon.com and they will happily ship it to me. I pay for shipping and taxes and all is well. Not so with ebooks, however.

Okay, what about ebooks? Those are cross-border by definition, because the Internet is world-wide, and there is no physical reason someone on this side of the world can't access a book published on the other side. There are legal reasons.

I don't know how I can make this any clearer: nobody gives a flying F. Nobody. Sort this out, quickly, by any and all means necessary, or alienate (potential) customers who will simply spend their book dollars elsewhere (or turn to dark channels if desperate enough).

[Anke Wehner]

Originally Posted by chamekke

OK, here's another question.

Why, why, why would a publisher make ebooks available for some of the titles in a series (trilogy or tetralogy) and not all of them?

And I'd like to know why book 2 in a series would have georestrictions that keep me from buying it when book 1 and 2 don't, and the other series by the same author doesn't, either.

This has occurred with both authors whose books I attempted to buy so far, from two different publishers (I think, not 100% sure what with the branches of big publishing houses...), and it seems pretty weird to me.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by rogue_librarian

I don't know how I can make this any clearer: nobody gives a flying F. Nobody. Sort this out, quickly, by any and all means necessary, or alienate (potential) customers who will simply spend their book dollars elsewhere (or turn to dark channels if desperate enough).

You may be willing to to ignore the laws conveying rights to particular territories and simply grab from the darknet.

Publishers do not have the option of simply ignoring the law. They must abide by territorial restrictions on contracts.

It won't be sorted out quickly, because it can't be. You have decades of accumulated international legal infrastructure and practice, and that doesn't go away overnight, even if all concerned agree it should. (And all concerned almost certainly don't agree.)

If you have a workable suggestion for what publishers can do now to address this, beyond "contract for world wide ebook rights when they acquire a title" (which is likely what they are doing now if they have any sense). I'd love to hear it.
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Dennis

[rogue_librarian]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

You may be willing to to ignore the laws conveying rights to particular territories and simply grab from the darknet.

I am not, but I know of people who are not as patient. And I can't say that I particularly blame them. Even so it's a lost sale, and pissing off would-be customers is generally not considered good sales practice. But I digress.

... and that doesn't go away overnight, even if all concerned agree it should.

All that it would take, really, is to apply home state regulation to the sale of digital goods as well. (Change a few laws if you must. A treaty if you feel adventurous.) Actually, there is one step prior to that: it needs to be considered an issue worth solving. I'm not sure we're quite there yet.

[queentess]

Originally Posted by rogue_librarian

All that it would take, really, is to apply home state regulation to the sale of digital goods as well. (Change a few laws if you must. A treaty if you feel adventurous.)

Oh, is that all?

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by rogue_librarian

I am not, but I know of people who are not as patient. And I can't say that I particularly blame them. Even so it's a lost sale, and pissing off would-be customers is generally not considered good sales practice. But I digress.

I don't blame them either. Confronted with a large enough incentive (a book I really really wanted, that I'd be happy to pay for, but no one is allowed to sell it to me), so might I.

All that it would take, really, is to apply home state regulation to the sale of digital goods as well. (Change a few laws if you must. A treaty if you feel adventurous.) Actually, there is one step prior to that: it needs to be considered an issue worth solving. I'm not sure we're quite there yet.

I wish it were as simple as you make it sound. If it were, we would not be having this discussion. (How much fun is it to get a law changed where you live? What's involved and how long does it take? I'm willing to bet the process is neither short nor simple.)

But meanwhile, there are things to keep in mind.

First, ebooks are a rapidly growing phenomenon, but they haven't taken over the market yet. They are still a minority of book sales.

Second, even among those who do buy ebooks, how many are really affected by this issue? Whether you are depends upon where you live. If you're in the US, for example, you can probably get most of what you want legally. Folks who live outside the US and want books issued by foreign publishers are the ones with problems. The people who are badly bitten by this are a minority of the total ebook buying population.

Third, prophecies of gloom and doom for publishers because this problem exists and has not been instantly rectified are over-blown. Major publishers aren't going to go belly up tomorrow because of lost sales due to geo-restrictions. They're too big, and the number of people adversely affected by this who have no recourse but the darknet is too small. There are lots of challenges facing major publishers that might put them out of business if not properly handled, but this is fairly low on the list.
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Dennis

[Piper_]

I'm not well educated on all the intricacies, so forgive me and please clarify if I have this wrong.

But my understanding is that the "point of sale" is deemed to be different for ebooks than for other things ordered online...?

So I, in the US, can order a paper book online and have it sent to me from the UK (even if the publisher only has UK rights), because the point of sale for a paper book is the store.

But the point of sale for ebooks is my computer's location, so I can't order the e-version to be sent to me.

If so, it seems a little arbitrary, and maybe fixing that would be all that's necessary.

Who would be responsible for this determination?

ETA: I stalled around and didn't refresh before posting, so I just saw the "apply home state regulation to the sale of digital goods as well." comments in the last 3 posts. I guess this is it, then.

So I guess my only question now is who and why that was decided. At least I'll know who to whom I should direct my complaints.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by Piper_

I'm not well educated on all the intricacies, so forgive me and please clarify if I have this wrong.

But my understanding is that the "point of sale" is deemed to be different for ebooks than for other things ordered online...?

So I, in the US, can order a paper book online and have it sent to me from the UK (even if the publisher only has UK rights), because the point of sale for a paper book is the store.

Something like that. We can, and do, order UK editions of things like the Harry Potter books and Tom Holt fantasies (who doesn't seem to have a US publisher these days), from Amazon UK, and have them shipped to us in the US. It's quite legal because the point of sale is the UK. I'm buying a UK published book in the UK, and the seller has the right to sell it to me.

I can't buy those UK editions from Amazon US. They don't have the right to make that sale.

But the point of sale for ebooks is my computer's location, so I can't order the e-version to be sent to me.

Unless you use something like a proxy server to disguise your location.

If so, it seems a little arbitrary, and maybe fixing that would be all that's necessary.

It is a little arbitrary. The law often is.

Who would be responsible for this determination?

ETA: I stalled around and didn't refresh before posting, so I just saw the "apply home state regulation to the sale of digital goods as well." comments in the last 3 posts. I guess this is it, then.

So I guess my only question now is who and why that was decided. At least I'll know who to whom I should direct my complaints.

Start with your local congress critters.

The fundamental problem is that publishers have historically contracted for rights by territory. They license the right to publish the book and sell it in a particular geographical area.

And publishers historically have not sold direct to consumers. They sell to distributors, who sell to retailers, who sell the books to you.

So to take a mentioned example, Scholastic is the US publisher for Harry Potter. Bloomsbury is the UK publisher. Scholastic has the US rights to the book, and wants me to buy their edition. It's why they acquired US rights: they thought it was something they could sell. So if I want the UK edition published by Bloomsbury, I have to buy it from a UK retailer and have it shipped overseas. Same thing if I'm in the UK and want the US edition. The sale has to take place in the territory covered by the rights.

What happens if there's an ebook? Thus far, it's a moot point, as Rowling has refused to license ebook editions. If she recants, who will issue them? Scholastic? Bloomsbury? Someone else entirely? It might just be someone else entirely, as erights aren't covered by her existing contracts, and while Scholastic and Bloomsbury will both want them, who gets them will depend on what sort of offers are tendered.

Pretending I'm an author again, let's say I place a book with a small publisher, who buys the paper rights. Let's say the book becomes popular, and there is demand for an ebook edition. Do I license worldwide ebook rights to the small publisher, or do I accept an offer from a major publisher interested in doing it? I might well go with the big guy, because I want my book to sell, and the question will be "Who can do the best job of selling it worldwide?"

On the same line, what happens if my US publisher does license worldwide ebook rights for my book? How does this affect my chances of getting it picked up by foreign publishers, who might see the ebook rights for their territory as valuable, and be less inclined to pick up my book for their market if they can't get erights too?

It's a complex topic with lots of ramifications and no simple answers. Each link in the chain is trying to make money, and has licensed or bought rights designed to help them do that. Updating existing contracts to lift geo-restrictions will be a contentious process, and someone will feel their ox is being gored and they are potentially losing money, pretty much regardless of how you do it.
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Dennis

[Piper_]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

It's a complex topic with lots of ramifications and no simple answers. Each link in the chain is trying to make money, and has licensed or bought rights designed to help them do that. Updating existing contracts to lift geo-restrictions will be a contentious process, and someone will feel their ox is being gored and they are potentially losing money, pretty much regardless of how you do it.
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Dennis

Seems to sum it up well. Thanks, Dennis.

I guess the only thing left is to be glad they haven't insisted on the same point of sale law for pbooks.

I'm not optimistic about fixing it, since it appears to be an international law.

(heh, I started to use an acronym for "point of sale." Decided not to, but it would be fitting.)

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by Piper_

Seems to sum it up well. Thanks, Dennis.

You're welcome.

I guess the only thing left is to be glad they haven't insisted on the same point of sale law for pbooks.

No need to. For pbooks, the current setup satisfies all parties. Publishers have exclusive rights in their territories. If I want to get a book from a British publisher, I have to buy it from a UK retailer. I can, and they can ship it to me. The fact that I'm in the US is irrelevant. the folks with territorail interests have made their cut.

For ebooks, that equation changes.

I'm not optimistic about fixing it, since it appears to be an international law.

Since the issues cross national borders, international law is involved.

This will get worse before it gets better. Trade is increasingly global. I'm assuming that publishers will try to get worldwide ebook rights as part of publishing contracts going forward. Problems with geo-restrictions on books where the contracts don't convey worldwide ebook rights will gradually go away as those contracts expire.

(Publishers don't acquire permanent rights to titles: contracts generally cover the period in which the book is in print. When the book goes out of print, the author, author's agent, or author's estate can request that the rights revert, and try to resell the tile elsewhere or self-publish. Ebooks and Print On Demand have muddied the waters on when a book is out of print, and current contracts specify a minimum level of sales for those editions to qualify as still in print.)

As contracts expire, if there is perceived demand for the title, we may expect to see it picked up by someone else under a different contract with worldwide rights.

But because trade is increasingly global, we'll see increased pressure on publishers to sell worldwide, and increased pressure on smaller publishers trying to compete globally. I expect more consolidation in publishing as part of the effort to build houses that can can compete globally, and I expect to see protectionist efforts by various governments trying to protect local publishers in the face of global competition. (Along the lines of "If you want to offer your international bestseller here, you'll have to cut a deal to have it issued in our country by one of our publishers, so that they get a piece of the action." This already happens in multi-national manufacturing, where there is political pressure to source components for various things from local suppliers in countries affected. Aircraft and automobiles are examples.)

Meanwhile, nobody knows what the landscape will look like when the dust settles.

All I can really say to folks complaining bitterly about geo-restrictions is "I don't blame you, but you're stuck with it, and you will continue to be stuck with it for the foreseeable future."

(heh, I started to use an acronym for "point of sale." Decided not to, but it would be fitting.)

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Dennis

[chamekke]

Originally Posted by Anke Wehner

And I'd like to know why book 2 in a series would have georestrictions that keep me from buying it when book 1 and 2 don't, and the other series by the same author doesn't, either.

This has occurred with both authors whose books I attempted to buy so far, from two different publishers (I think, not 100% sure what with the branches of big publishing houses...), and it seems pretty weird to me.

I've seen that too. It's most bewildering - not to mention frustrating as hell.

My examples above are actually American examples (in that if you go onto the Amazon.com site and use the drop-down to select your country as United States, this is what you'll see... but, speaking as a Canadian, I've certainly seen plenty of additional, and very bizarre, georestrictions. I only quoted the American series omissions because the U.S.A. is the market of choice and therefore less unlikely (in theory) to be shrugged off.

[rogue_librarian]

Originally Posted by queentess

Oh, is that all?

Indeed. The current status quo is by no means a given. Why am I allowed to buy physical books and re-export them (all on the up and up, sellers will ship them to me), but not ebooks? It really wouldn't take all that much to change that.

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

I wish it were as simple as you make it sound. If it were, we would not be having this discussion. (How much fun is it to get a law changed where you live? What's involved and how long does it take? I'm willing to bet the process is neither short nor simple.)

Define "simple". The EU, e.g. could do it with a stroke of the (legal) pen by passing a regulation.

They are still a minority of book sales.

Yes, and publishers are doing their darndest to keep 'em that way.

If you're in the US, for example, you can probably get most of what you want legally.

Thank you for this wonderful example of applied omphaloskepsis.

They're too big ...

Too big to fail? Yeah, I've heard that one before.