Piracy Experiment

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by MrsJoseph

This is a real world situation. I don't live anywhere but the real world. Just because you also have the ability to make multiple copies does not stop the initial action. You took something without permission. How do you feel if someone takes something of yours without your permission?

It is not physically possible to download an ebook from someone without them consciously deciding to make it available for download.

[MrsJoseph]

Originally Posted by mr ploppy

It is not physically possible to download an ebook from someone without them consciously deciding to make it available for download.

We are decending into nothingness. Seriously? This is what you came up with?

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Are they doing well? I've certainly read reports that music piracy has had a significant impact on the profits of the large record companies.

Which ones? Even during a severe global recession UK music industry profits are up 1.4%. Download sales alone are up 50% on last year. The massive jump in download sales doesn't really indicate a widespread piracy problem to me. Like you say, why would someone pay for something if they already downloaded it for free?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/8645878.stm

[MrsJoseph]

Originally Posted by Belle2Be

And just maybe, "we" don't want a laundry list of excuses why you think it's morally depraved.

Excuses are monuments of nothingness
they build bridges to nowhere
those who use these tools of incompetence
are masters of nothingness.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by MrsJoseph

We are decending into nothingness. Seriously? This is what you came up with?

Your analogy was with someone replicating your ebook reader without your permission, wasn't it?

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by MrsJoseph

Excuses are monuments of nothingness

So are trite aphorisms.

[MrsJoseph]

No, it is about taking something without permission.

*sigh*

I'm going to drop into GR to see what my Fantasy group is doing.

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by HarryT

It's the "without permission" part that's significant. If a friend chooses to lend you her car, or an author chooses to give you a copy of his book, that's absolutely fine, and I'm sure that nobody has an issue with it. It's when you take your friend's car without asking her, or you obtain a copy of the author's book without the author's permission, that the issues arise. In both cases, it's for your friend or the author to decide whether they wish to lend you their car, or give you a copy of their book. It's wrong (IMHO) for you to just walk up and take them.

If my friend has bought an e-book, stripped the DRM, and then gives me the file for my use, is that a moral problem?

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by mr ploppy

Which ones? Even during a severe global recession UK music industry profits are up 1.4%. Download sales alone are up 50% on last year. The massive jump in download sales doesn't really indicate a widespread piracy problem to me. Like you say, why would someone pay for something if they already downloaded it for free?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/8645878.stm

The article you quote says that this small rise follows 5 years of declining sales and that the market is "constrained by competition from illegal downloads". Perhaps this indicates that the decline has bottomed out, but 5 years of falling sales is not indicative of an industry that's doing well.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by Catlady

Here's my question, and I really want to know the answer:

Why is it legally and morally acceptable for me to copy my own paper book to a digital file--just as I can rip mp3s from my own CDs--but not legally and morally acceptable for me to obtain a digital file of that same book from someone else?

Legally, it rather depends where you are. In the UK it's not currently legal to do any of the things you mention.

Morally, in my opinion, if you own a paper copy of the book in question, I see nothing wrong with obtaining a digital copy of that book from someone else, IF that digital copy came from a non-commercial scanning effort.

However, if it's a pirated copy of the commercial ebook, then (again, all IMO, as are all moral questions) there is something a little bit wrong with it, since the commercial publisher who created the ebook has spent money converting and formatting the ebook edition, and is entitled to some return on the expenditure.

The way I've handled this situation myself even goes a bit further. When a commercial ebook of an in-copyright work has appeared after I've obtained an unauthorised ebook copy of the paper books I own, I've bought the commercial ebook too. The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings being specific examples.

YMMV*



*Your Morals May Vary

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by MrsJoseph

No, it is about taking something without permission.

Like I said, nobody can "take" your ebook unless you consciously make it available (ie give permission). Your analogy doesn't work. It would need to be someone replicating the ebook manufacturer's design and handing them out for free, not just an owner's ebook reader. That's why I said it is pointless trying to force real world items into analogies about copyright violation. Even if Star Trek replicators were real it still wouldn't fit.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by HarryT

The article you quote says that this small rise follows 5 years of declining sales and that the market is "constrained by competition from illegal downloads". Perhaps this indicates that the decline has bottomed out, but 5 years of falling sales is not indicative of an industry that's doing well.

I wouldn't exactly call £100million profit in those "declining" years indicative of an industry in trouble either. But if it is all related to unauthorised downloads, wouldn't a 50% increase in authorised downloads indicate a reduction in piracy rather than a rise?

[Belle2Be]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I'm afraid I don't understand that. Why is it the case that "clearly you have permission" if you download a copy of a song or a book that someone has uploaded illegally?

Sorry, I edited to clarify From the perspective of real world comparisons, someone buying a book from a used book store, or getting it for free from the library giveaway box doesn't require the permission of the author.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by Catlady

If my friend has bought an e-book, stripped the DRM, and then gives me the file for my use, is that a moral problem?

This is where we get to a very grey area. In my view, it depends on scale.

If your friend does this with every ebook they buy, then yes, I think that's morally wrong. Unless your friend is actually your "Significant Other" (is that phrase still used?) in which case it's OK by me.

If your friend does it occasionally, for a book they think you'll like that's by an author new to you, then that's OK by me.

If your friend only does it once, but gives the file to you and 10,000* other 'friends', then I think it's morally wrong.

YMMV

*No, I'm not going to discuss where between 1 and 10,000 it stops being OK and becomes wrong. That's rather what's meant by grey!

[bucsie]

Then one can argue that there is only 1 actual thief - the one that makes the first copy available on the net - as that one doesn't have the copyright holder's permission. everyone else has the pirate's consent.