Hypocrites abound!

[JSWolf]

I've seen people criticize Sony for being the only source of DRM ebook for the 500/505. Where is this same critisizm of Amazon as the only source of DRM ebooks for the Kindle? Even Mobipocket has a similar problem. Yes you can buy Mobipocket books at multiple ebook shops, but most of the ebooks rely on a single DRM server. Fictionwise may be the only ebook shop that I know of that sells DRM Mobipocket that uses Overdrive's DRM server as well on some of it's titles. I do not know about MS Reader titles and it's DRM scheme.

But is does seem that for reflowable ebooks that can be read on the current generation of eink based ebook readers, we are beholden to a small number of companies... Sony, Amazon, Mobipocket, and (I'm guessing here) Microsoft. Basically, these four companies hold most of the cards. Something needs to be done about ti so we don't end up with a fiasco like we did when Mobipocket's DRM server was taken down for about two weeks. The only solution to this problem is not more DRM servers, but NO DRM servers. That way if any of these companies was to decide to either stop ebooks or fold, others could still support the format. Imagine how you would feel if Amazon decided to change Mobipocket into AZW only. Or Sony decided it had enough or Microsoft... eReader I don't count as they don't support eink. But think it over, 4 companies hold the keys to most of the world's legal ebooks.

[kkingdon]

In the physical realm, things wear out, become obsolete, get lost or broken, used up, etc. So the seller of physical goods has a reasonable expectation of selling another "copy" of the same thing to the same consumer. In the digital realm, information doesn't wear out. Instead, the storage format becomes obsolete or the storage medium wears out, gets lost, etc. (Or the DRM server crashes. ) The seller of the storage medium has a legitimate expectation of repeated sales. But just as an automobile owner can extend the useful life of his vehicle by expending time, effort and maintenance, so can an information owner extend the useful life of information by backing it up to newer media or by converting the information to a new format. In a "natural" information economy (that is, one not warped by interfering laws and regulations), there would be no artificial obstacles to the extension of the useful life of information. To the extent that anti-copying measures or anti-format-conversion measures are wrapped around information, the value of that information is reduced. In a natural information economy, one should not be willing to pay as much for crippled information forms as for unrestricted information formats and media.

Following this line of reasoning, my first shopping priority is to look for ebooks that I want to read that have no DRM restrictions. I really appreciate Fictionwise or Baen Books in this respect. But if there is a particular book that is only available in DRM-protected formats, I will choose to purchase the format that is most easily backed-up and format-converted. Only if I desparately want to read an ebook that is only available in an unconvertable format would I buy it in that form. And if the price is the same as or close to the same as the cost of that information in paper-book form, I would be just as likely to buy the paper book because its useful life is likely to be far longer than the DRM-locked, single-format ebook.

Most purchasers have an intuitive grasp of the economics of paper-books versus e-books. That is probably why paper books will continue to dominate over e-books until 1) the cost of readers comes down (you get a free p-book reader with every book) and 2) the consumer feels that the longevity of e-books is as great as that of p-books, or 3) the cost of e-books are greatly reduced compared to e-books.

Sorry for the long post, but I'm still trying to work out the issues relating to a natural information economy in my own mind and this was a good opportunity too try out a few of those ideas on this group.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Even Mobipocket has a similar problem. Yes you can buy Mobipocket books at multiple ebook shops, but most of the ebooks rely on a single DRM server. Fictionwise may be the only ebook shop that I know of that sells DRM Mobipocket that uses Overdrive's DRM server as well on some of it's titles.

It may be the only one you know of, but it's certainly not the only one . BooksOnBoard, for example, also sell OD Mobi books.

But think it over, 4 companies hold the keys to most of the world's legal ebooks.

And how would lack of DRM servers help with that? If a company's servers went down, you still wouldn't be able to buy eBooks from them, DRM or no DRM.

[rixte]

Originally Posted by HarryT

And how would lack of DRM servers help with that? If a company's servers went down, you still wouldn't be able to buy eBooks from them, DRM or no DRM.

I think a major point is that if a company's DRM server goes down, it can deny you access to a book that you've already *bought*.

(This is my main concern - I've had to reauthorize computers numbers of times due to device upgrades. I still have the actual files and I don't even need to redownload them, I just need to be able to access them again. That's enough of a pain when the server on the other side is working.)

[TadW]

Originally Posted by rixte

I think a major point is that if a company's DRM server goes down, it can deny you access to a book that you've already *bought*.

Of course, purely hypothetically, you mean.

[recycledelectron]

This is usually an issue on the books you buy, not on the reader. I use my Sony PRS-505 only with content that I have loaded from my NAS, via memory card. I never installed the Sony software that came with it. (I can do without "$50" in "Free" public domain books.) I have never opened a .LRF file on my PRS-505. It's an almost decent b/w PDF/LIT/PNG/GIF/JPG reader with a built in AAC/MP3 player.

This is similar to the way that I have a PC with a DVD drive, but I refuse to play copy-protected (CSS) movies on it. I stick with data disks that sometimes contain movie files (e.g., AVI, MOV, & MPEG.)

DRMed works are exactly what you described earlier - guaranteed to be obsolete. The sellers of DRMed works bribed CONgress into letting them sell deliberately defective products. Some people are fooled into buying them, and some of us are not.

Of course, there's also the issue of readers like the Sony Libre, which was so crippled by DRM-like garbage, that it was unusable. Such devices must be appraised for their ability to operate in a free-world environment (i.e., Linux with no Sony s/w on the machine.) The Libre was less usable as a book than a rock (people have carved words into stone, but I have not seen a Sony Libre with words carved into its' carcus, yet.)

Andy

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by HarryT

It may be the only one you know of, but it's certainly not the only one . BooksOnBoard, for example, also sell OD Mobi books.

But how many of the ,obi format books out there are OD vs. MP? When the DRM servers was taken down, most books were unavailable.

And how would lack of DRM servers help with that? If a company's servers went down, you still wouldn't be able to buy eBooks from them, DRM or no DRM.

That's the point. if the DRM servers were to be taken down or not working, we'd not be able to get most of the content because they are tied into DRm which needs these servers. Let's say Mobipocket was to go down, I know books could then be made using OD's DRM server. But that won't help with all the books out there that use MP's DRM server. It's a real problem. We are giving these 4 companies most of the control for the entire world. That's not fair.

[DaleDe]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

We are giving these 4 companies most of the control for the entire world. That's not fair.

4 companies is 4 times better than one company and actually it is sort of 5 with two servers for mobi. What is needed is a backup server that kicks in automatically and I would expect that at least Microsoft has such a system in place. With two Mobi servers it would seem that they could design a system to share the load and which might even be better than a backup.

Palm eReader doesn't really need a server I believe since the DRM is tied to the credit card. Thus even if the others all went down at once you could still buy books but probably not for the hardware you own.

[Alisa]

I'm seeing ample criticism of Amazon's DRM policies here and on other sites and plenty have pointed out that Sony and Amazon are pretty equal on that score.

[kacir]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I've seen people criticize Sony for being the only source of DRM ebook for the 500/505. Where is this same critisizm of Amazon as the only source of DRM ebooks for the Kindle?

See my replies to this thread:
https://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17017
And many other threads.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by kkingdon

In the physical realm, things wear out, become obsolete, get lost or broken, used up, etc. So the seller of physical goods has a reasonable expectation of selling another "copy" of the same thing to the same consumer.

I do not beleive that is true for paper books. Publisher does not expect to sell the same title more than once to the same consumer.

[Alisa]

Originally Posted by tompe

I do not beleive that is true for paper books. Publisher does not expect to sell the same title more than once to the same consumer.

I agree. And while certainly people lose or damage books from time to time it is an accident or the fault of our own carelessness. It's not externally and willfully imposed. We would feel differently if the publisher just came and took our books back off the shelves effectively because they didn't provide a way to convert DRM content when they stopped supporting it. I don't think most consumers intuitively understand this possibility, either. I think they expect that as long as they back up their data, they will be able to have access to it. Personally, I know that's not true and I keep that in mind when I buy anything DRM-laden, but I don't think I'm an average consumer.

[JSWolf]

The problem for most people is that DRM could someday get in the way. Amazon has the Kindle now. But what if Sony and Borders was to get together with their own wifi reader and have lots of publishers on board and suddenly it becomes the hot new device everyone wants and it causes the Kindle to tank and Amazon does what it did in the past with ebooks and just dumps Kindle support. Then you have Kindle users screwed with content that is not only not available, but paid for content it gone as it sits on a server no longer serving it.

I know that is an extreme example, but it just goes to show one possible example of how things can go wrong and DRM screwing you over big time. I personally to not want to rely on my books being on some server and my being able to get it when I need/want it. I'd rather have it on my system and backed up on either another hard drive or CD/DVD.

[Alisa]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I know that is an extreme example, but it just goes to show one possible example of how things can go wrong and DRM screwing you over big time. I personally to not want to rely on my books being on some server and my being able to get it when I need/want it. I'd rather have it on my system and backed up on either another hard drive or CD/DVD.

I don't think that's an extreme example at all. We've already seen it happen though not on as large a scale as it could be if either Kindle or Sony failed in their current endeavors. I think that's one of the reasons that they both have been more successful than smaller booksellers. People feel they'll have a better chance of being around down the line. I don't rely on Amazon for storing my books. I keep a local copy (not sure how common that is among fellow Kindle owners), but with any DRM that's just half the picture. The readability of that format over time is the other half. At least Sony offers desktop software if the hardware reader goes away. That gets you a bit more time but eventually becomes cumbersome if the software doesn't transfer well to later operating systems. Personally, I want to see a guarantee that if a company is going to stop supporting their DRM, that they provide a transition path for your content.