A former Kindle user's manifesto... (or something like that..)

[=X=]

Originally Posted by FF2

TallMomof2

I apparently "purchased" topaz drm-ed files. Purchased in quotes since they were freebies. But nonetheless, they are not easy to backup. Have you avoided such purchases whether free or not? I gather that even topaz can be backed up in a more tedious method. Maybe I should make it a point to read those first - just in case.

They are easy to back up, just more work to convert. There are tools that do a decent job creating HTML out of it but still not as easy as other formats.

[OtterBooks]

I'm a new Kindle user (was a gift), and I was unaware of the nature of the proprietary/DRM issue prior to ownership, though I assumed it existed.

So far I haven't come across any situation where I feel limited or locked-in due to being a Kindle owner. I've seen the other retailers' ebooks, including the other sources for mobi books, and their prices and selection seemed the same with a few cent differences on some. I've procured books from non-Amazon sources, such as the excellent library on this site.

I suppose I may experience a situation where the book I want is only available in drm'd epub. But as of now the selection available is actually so large I have more difficulty deciding what to read next.

[hybridfiat]

Im a new Ebook owner/reader and although I like the idea of keeping a book that I have enjoyed I have bought the Kindle to read when on trips or in a remote place. It allows me the freedom to read books cheaply and conveniently and if they are not to my liking then discard them without the conscience being pricked.
I expect to read a much wider variety of books now because I will not have invested much time or money in obtaining them. Unlike the (In my case long) trip to the library or the angst and high cost of shopping for a new book in Australia.
In short if they all dissappear Ill simply console myself with the knowledge that Id already read them, they cost next to nothing and I can do it all again.

[timezone]

The problem is epub is also a lock. You could have been on the Nook and then discovered Amazon and decided to leave the lock of epub. It may not feel like a lock because there are more ways to buy an epub book. Even becoming the de facto standard does not preclude the possibility of another DRM format appearing in the future that overtakes epub and Mobi. In a virtual world we are only renters despite what we think.

[Red Alert]

I've reduced my reading on eBook Readers because my books are "tied" to a particular device.
Can you imagine buying a CD or DVD and it not letting you view it on your Sony player but only on a Amazon player? What about a gas pump that won't let you fill your Ford, but you can come back and it will fill your Nissan?

I say all these companies are distributors and should not be device oriented. Sell me a license to read a book on any device, but let me choose the device. If I want to read on a phone or ereader or iPad or PC, let me. Just me. That way I can choose my device that has the bells and whistles I want; or not. Maybe eInk suits me and a color Nook does not. Should be my choice.
Ralph

[Miss Understood]

Originally Posted by =X=

-- ePUB is an open standard
>> True but that is not what most people buy. They buy DRM ePUB(aka Adobe) and that is just as closed as Amazon's Mobi. It's a closed format it's owned by one company. And then of course you have Apple's and B&N's format to confuse folks even more.

-- It's not ePUB vs MOBI..... it's DRM vs. No-DRM.
>> I'm tired of the ePUB vs MOBI argument ... Big Endian/Little Endian.. who cares. The real issue is DRM vs No DRM.
=X=

You know what I find weird is that I see people saying you can only read B&N books on Nook. I must have been lucky or something, because I have all of my B&N epubs on my Sony and all of my Sony Store books on my Nook. I have no problem reading all of my books on both devices.

Also, about the library issue, not all libraries have small inferior choices for download. Two of my local libraries belong to big consortiums that could afford a lot of ebooks so they have HUGE selections.

Just my two cents. I'm glad that Kindle owners are happy with their devices.

[emellaich]

I was wondering how epub DRM works: Who runs the DRM server. Is it Adobe, or the store. Specifically, if B&N goes out of business, will customers still have access to their purchases?

I know that the books already downloaded are accessible. Here is the scenario I am trying to figure out: Assume I own an epub device. I buy and download a book. Then B&N goes bankrupt. Later the reader breaks and I have to replace it with a different brand. Will I be able to access the book on the new device? Or, does access end if B&N disappears?

Thanks,
MLH

[abookreader]

I don't think anybody can really predict what would happen with Barnes and Noble emellaich. Not even with the "going out of business" but even a What If concerning the proposed Borders/B&N merger news of the last week.

My guess is that whatever survived of the business would continue to operate to nook product range - it is fairly profitable. Its the Bricks and Mortar business that is dragging them under. There have been providers who have gone under or ceased eBooks though and usually the buyers get a 30 or 60 day notice to download their books, and then they are no longer available. As I see it, that is the PRIME reason for removing DRM and archiving your own eBook library no matter who you buy from.

If I had to make a guess (bet) it would be that all the Barnes and Noble archive libraries would remain intact (As would Borders) and the DRM going forward would be the standard ADE ePub. I'm guessing that Borders would also cease the "Powered by Kobo" part of their eBooks and it would all just merge into the nook brand.

[catsittingstill]

Well, I totally agree that Amazon's e-bookstore would be even better if they sold ebooks in all formats, and if they didn't put DRM on their e-books.

And I totally agree that Kindles would be even better if they supported all formats, and if they could use DRM schemes from all stores.

But isn't that an issue with pretty much any major e-book store (I love Baen, but the selection isn't all it might be) and pretty much any hardware?

And in the meantime, Kindle, like any device, can read books sold in its format without DRM from any store (Hi Baen! Hi Fictionwise! Hi Cory Doctorow!). And, like any device, it has outside conversion programs that can convert unprotected e-books into its format which, in exchange for a little time and trouble, widens the number of stores it can be "fed" from. And, like any device (with the possible exception of iPad/iBooks at the moment) there are ways to strip the DRM off its books for storage/conversion, which in exchange for more time and trouble widens selection still farther.

So, I picked the device that had the hardware features I wanted balanced against the e-book selection I wanted. I don't see how I'm more "locked in" than anybody else.

But, hey, have fun with your Nook or whatever. It's perfectly okay if you don't want a Kindle. Heck, people like you who buy other readers are my insurance against Amazon cornering the market and jacking up the prices, so I really value you.

[ATDrake]

Originally Posted by emellaich

Here is the scenario I am trying to figure out: Assume I own an epub device. I buy and download a book. Then B&N goes bankrupt. Later the reader breaks and I have to replace it with a different brand. Will I be able to access the book on the new device? Or, does access end if B&N disappears?

Regarding B&N, their DRM-scheme works like a glorified username/password combo for the file. No need to go back to a central server to "authenticate" anything the way that ADE does. Once you've downloaded your book the first time, it'll work forevermore, provided you've still got something to read it with, and it hasn't corrupted due to copying errors or disk damage.

As long as you still have a good copy and some sort of reader/software app which can open B&N-DRM files, then even if B&N does a murder/suicide pact with Borders and sinks into oblivion, you'll still be able to open your e-books as long as you remember the Name/CC# combo that was on file in your account when you downloaded it.

They've also no device limits as a result of this and their supporting hardware/apps support more than one Name/CC# combo at a time. So in theory you could put your B&N-DRM books on as many readers as you like (supply an entire classroom with a single one of those B&N Classic promo freebies, say). Even swap around with your family and friends, provided you're willing to enter your very personal info for the first book you put on their devices and vice versa.

There are many things B&N does wrong when it comes to e-books/readers and marketing/selling/providing support for them, but their relatively flexible and lenient DRM scheme (which they bought from eReader and have been slowly destroying Fictionwise over) is not one of them.

And you can readily remove it with nothing more installed than Python, which is a great boon for people with non-standard computer systems.

I hope that once the B&N-DRM scheme gets incorporated into ADE like they've been negotiating for, more devices will start using it.

[sbtx99]

Personally, I would be more concerned about being locked into B&N's DRM scheme for two reasons.

First, I use virtual account numbers for online purchases, and so the CC# expires and changes more frequently than if I were to use my actual CC# online. This was never a problem at Fictionwise, because Fictionwise gives the option of which CC# to use during the download process. So the credit card number used for downloading can be independent of the one that was used for purchasing. B&N doesn't give that option.

Second, I don't own a Nook but have used their mobile apps to download a few free ebooks from B&N. The Nook for Android app started giving errors about not being able to connect to the server when the credit card number I had used to "purchase" the free ebooks expired. Then I got kicked out (logged out) of the iPhone app. When I logged back into my B&N account in the Nook for iPhone app, I had lost access to the ebooks I had previously downloaded and had to re-download them. But in order to re-download, I had to update my credit card information on my B&N account. It wasn't a matter of just entering the credit card information that had been used to purchase the ebooks, I had to log into my B&N account on my PC and enter a valid credit card number on my B&N account before I could re-download the ebooks into the Nook for iPhone app. And it was only after I had updated the credit card information that the errors in the Nook for Android app went away.

[ATDrake]

Wow. It sounds like B&N is actively trying to make one of the three otherwise indisputably good things about their e-books operation suck (the others are the low-priced and excellently done annotated B&N Classics line often available as promo freebies, and their cute stuffed mascot bear, in case you were interested, which you're not).

Normally you should just be able to drag your old files into any given app/device, and enter the corresponding name/CC# when prompted, and that should be the end of it. Sucks that it seems like they've changed this, and I'm sorry you've been having problems with their new-and-disimproved method.

Well, at least it's still the easiest of the lot to strip.

[sbtx99]

Originally Posted by ATDrake

There are many things B&N does wrong when it comes to e-books/readers and marketing/selling/providing support for them, but their relatively flexible and lenient DRM scheme (which they bought from eReader and have been slowly destroying Fictionwise over) is not one of them.

It's flexible in the original Fictionwise ereader app, and the original B&N ereader app. And even in the Bluefire app for iPhone. But the Nook apps for iPhone and Android... not so much. <snip>

I don't know how it works on the actual Nook devices, but the Nook apps for mobile devices have been amongst the most inflexible that I've used.

ETA: sorry... realized I had repeated info... didn't mean to do that.

[sbtx99]

Originally Posted by ATDrake

Wow. It sounds like B&N is actively trying to make one of the three otherwise indisputably good things about their e-books operation suck (the others are the low-priced and excellently done annotated B&N Classics line often available as promo freebies, and their cute stuffed mascot bear, in case you were interested, which you're not).

Normally you should just be able to drag your old files into any given app/device, and enter the corresponding name/CC# when prompted, and that should be the end of it. Sucks that it seems like they've changed this, and I'm sorry you've been having problems with their new-and-disimproved method.

Well, at least it's still the easiest of the lot to strip.

For most people, it wouldn't be a problem. It's only been a problem for me because I don't like using my actual credit card number online and my credit card company lets me assign temporary account numbers for online purchases. I even tried extending the expiration date and limiting the amount that could be charged to a couple dollars. But B&N ate up the available limit. I'm guessing they charge and credit your account a $1.00 every so often to validate the card number. The charge must go against the limit, but the credit just goes to my regular account. Or something like that.

The only reason I tried was so I could sync the B&N ebooks between my mobile devices. Stripping the DRM and using another reading app is much easier.

[ATDrake]

Originally Posted by sbtx99

I don't know how it works on the actual Nook devices, but the Nook apps for mobile devices have been amongst the most inflexible that I've used.

According to someone on the Nook forum, it still works the way it should on the actual devices. And for the B&N Reader app for Mac, for which I'd be surprised to see an update for any time soon.

Frankly, you are far more patient than I would have been in the same situation. The second time it asked me to to re-validate and re-download anything, I'd have ditched the app and just started merrily stripping all that pesky DRM away.

Which I do anyway since I'm a Kindle user. But I'd have done it with extra feeling, y'know?

It seems that B&N is developing a decided pattern of taking something that was working pretty well for the people who used it, and making it infinitely less useful and crappier in the bargain.

Poor Fictionwise. Doomed for nothing, since B&N could have just licensed ADE if they were going to play this way.

Originally Posted by sbtx99

It's only been a problem for me because I don't like using my actual credit card number online and my credit card company lets me assign temporary account numbers for online purchases.

I use almost exclusively for my Fictionwise and B&N "purchases" an old credit card which I otherwise don't touch, which also happens to have an easily remembered number (darn second-class computing citizen unupdated B&N Reader for Mac app makes me re-enter the unlock code for the first book of every reading session since last shutdown).

Maybe you could get your CC company to send you an auxiliary card with a different number/name variation (initial or such) that you could have just for your online purchases and could shut down easily at the first sign of suspicious activity without affecting your main #.