A former Kindle user's manifesto... (or something like that..)

[Kitabi]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

You didn't. You just seem to have a problem with people expressing their fondness for the company that manufactures it.

Not at all. You would find that I am an admirer of Amazon and one of their very regular pbook customers. However, I disagree with their one business decision in the ebook world that I feel is harmful to customers - especially new or inexperienced customers who are not paying attention to the customer lock-in aspect.

[kindlekitten]

I guess we're in a gilded cage with free access then, as I certainly do not feel caged

[ProfCrash]

Originally Posted by Kitabi

I respect that and if it felt I was forcing down opinions, I apologize. I responded purely because I am tired of some Kindle users making excuses for Amazon. Also, I care about fence-sitters who read through these forums. Once upon a time, I was one.

What Amazon is doing by going proprietary is not good for customers. No amount of DRM breaking or format conversion can change that.

I don't know anyone who have made excuses for Amazon. I do know plenty of folks who have posted that 1) You can buy books from stores other then Amazon 2) Conversion really is not that difficult if you want to do it 3) Amazons e-book selection is pretty large so we are not worried about having it as our main choice 4) We don't feel restricted by not having EPub. Those are not excuses, many are facts and some are just how we feel.

I can't help it that we do not all feel the way that you do. I am happy with my Kindle and the book store that I use. I think it is a great device that reads e-books easily and well. I do not feel limited by the lack of EPub support.

Really, you don't have to worry about my happiness or if I am trapped. I am happy and I am not trapped. Feel free to post your feelings in topics just don't be surprised that people respond saying it is not a big deal in their minds and why.

I almost feel like this real upswing in anti-Kindle lack of DRM posting is because people feel threatened by Amazon's success. To me the "freedom" that comes from EPub is similar to the memory card slot and replaceable battery debate. It looks nice on paper but it really is not that important to me in real life.

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by Kitabi

Not at all. You would find that I am an admirer of Amazon and one of their very regular pbook customers. However, I disagree with their one business decision in the ebook world that I feel is harmful to customers - especially new or inexperienced customers who are not paying attention to the customer lock-in aspect.

Again......how do you find putting out an easy to use device, with the best customer service available anywhere, an instant call back service,

with the largest bookstore out there,

with the most books available,

usually at the best price,

harmful to customers?

They can buy from Smashwords, for many indi authors, download public domain books.......the list is endles..

[=X=]

I've heard all the anti Amazon statements and just don't buy them. I don't think they are well thought out. Let me see if I can summarize all the re-occurring, weekly anti-amazon rants in one post. (followed by my response)


-- Can only read on the kindle.
>> Not true, I can read on my phone, PC, tablet, iPad, mac, etc..

-- No public library access.
>> Really? For years my city does not have access to eBooks and now that it does the selection is small and most books worth looking are checkedout. The wait is long and the time to read is short.
>> It makes no business sense. People wont' buy the kindle because they want to avoid paying for books? Really... you mean they've loss a business opportunity that they would have never gotten.

-- Choice.
>> Yes this is something of great value to me. But I would rather go to one store and have a great selection (read choice) of books a great prices than having a great choice of independent book vendors with a small book selection.

-- I want choices prt 2.
>> Careful what you wish for. When I owned my sony, I purchased from different vendors. The result has been a roller coaster ride. I've lost books due to formats being discontinued, books being OP, contracts(between Indp Ret and Publishers) changing.
Also own more than 200 books, it is a pain to have to go through each vendor when I want to re-download a book.

-- ePUB is an open standard
>> True but that is not what most people buy. They buy DRM ePUB(aka Adobe) and that is just as closed as Amazon's Mobi. It's a closed format it's owned by one company. And then of course you have Apple's and B&N's format to confuse folks even more.

-- It's not ePUB vs MOBI..... it's DRM vs. No-DRM.
>> I'm tired of the ePUB vs MOBI argument ... Big Endian/Little Endian.. who cares. The real issue is DRM vs No DRM.


-- Wispersync.
>> This is a great selling point of Amazon and something you don't get if you don't buy from them. Having the ability to read on my phone, PC, and Kindle and having the annotations, bookmarks synced is a fantastic feature. Again something you don't get, buying from independent vendors.


If people truly want choice don't bang on amazon's door, bang on the publisher and authors(some,not the MR Authors) who insist on fixed prices, and DRM.

=X=

[Kitabi]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

Again......how do you find putting out an easy to use device, with the best customer service available anywhere, an instant call back service,

with the largest bookstore out there,

with the most books available,

usually at the best price,

harmful to customers?

They can buy from Smashwords, for many indi authors, download public domain books.......the list is endles..

I have explained my part previously so you can refer back to those posts. Repeating the same would not serve any purpose.

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by Kitabi

I have explained my part previously so you can refer back to those posts. Repeating the same would not serve any purpose.

Answering the question would serve a purpose.

The above post demonstrates that Amazon is doing something that IS good for customers.

"Non-Technical" people are Amazons prime goal, because their device is so easy to use. Its a no-brainer.

Many people do not have access to a library that offers a decent selection of ebooks, in any format. Especially outside the United States. That takes care of the library people.

Epub or .mobi, what difference does it make if the book is available in both formats?

None.

[Kitabi]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

Answering the question would serve a purpose.

The above post demonstrates that Amazon is doing something that IS good for customers.

"Non-Technical" people are Amazons prime goal, because their device is so easy to use. Its a no-brainer.

Many people do not have access to a library that offers a decent selection of ebooks, in any format. Especially outside the United States. That takes care of the library people.

Epub or .mobi, what difference does it make if the book is available in both formats?

None.

I did not claim Amazon is evil so why the urge to prove Amazon is doing something good? I merely explained why proprietary formats are not good. Especially if a company can can get within striking distance of a monopoly or near monopoly position in it's industry.

I gave a very concrete example of MS Office to prove what can happen in such cases. Was MS Office a great product? Yes. Was MS very attentive to it's customers? Yes. Did the proprietariness of DOC, XLS and PPT formats cause problems later? Yes.

So, why such reassurance about the Kindle? A company with a dominant proprietary format will cause issues.

Anyway, I have long outstayed my welcome on this thread if there ever was one. Time to drop.

[Barty]

Originally Posted by Kitabi

I did not claim Amazon is evil so why the urge to prove Amazon is doing something good? I merely explained why proprietary formats are not good. Especially if a company can can get within striking distance of a monopoly or near monopoly position in it's industry.

I gave a very concrete example of MS Office to prove what can happen in such cases. Was MS Office a great product? Yes. Was MS very attentive to it's customers? Yes. Did the proprietariness of DOC, XLS and PPT formats cause problems later? Yes.

So, why such reassurance about the Kindle? A company with a dominant proprietary format will cause issues.

Anyway, I have long outstayed my welcome on this thread if there ever was one. Time to drop.

I think your posts have been civil, well reasoned, and on point. I have no problem with them and I think they've been helpful, though maybe not to people who've made up their minds.

Personally, I never get wrapped up in partisan arguments. Every product I buy is only an approximation of the ideal one I would like to have. I don't take it as some kind of personal affront if other people point out some shortcomings. Chances are, I already know what they are.

I think Sony used to use a proprietary format too, but not being in a dominant position, they decided to switch to ePub to broaden their appeal. Kindle, being the top dog, didn't need to do that so stuck to their proprietary format. It's not evil, but it's not a good thing either for the consumers. But most people don't know or don't care, or don't care enough to choose something else. It's all about priorities.

[sadievan]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

For those of you who DON"T strip the drm on the books you buy.......good luck when BN or Amazon decide to go a different way......as Amazon once did.

Forewarned is forearmed.

Please explain. I am new here and to ebooks, so I am not aware of Amazon ever changing their format. Heck, a month ago, I didn't know .azw from .epub. I am getting a Kindle for Christmas, or at least gift cards to buy one, and I can't wait. Am so excited to get one. Have no patience at all.

Carol

[abookreader]

I did not claim Amazon is evil so why the urge to prove Amazon is doing something good? I merely explained why proprietary formats are not good. Especially if a company can can get within striking distance of a monopoly or near monopoly position in it's industry.

Well - this is a forum dedicated to the Kindle. If one starts a post here dedicated to listing the perceived weaknesses or deficits of the Kindle, it is only natural to expect that the actual owners of the product will respond with their opinions.

There are other forums here that are more suitable for debating the merits of Kindle vs Sony vs Nook vs Kobo etc. Forums specifically designed for all those "fence sitters" to post their questions and threads such as this to respond.

ePub is no more open than Mobi once DRM is applied to it. You cannot take an ePub file that has been DRM'd to my Sony Pocket and put it on your nook, just as you can't take a file that is DRMd to my Kindle 3 and put it on the Kindle APP on your computer. Locked is locked is locked.

I'm a firm believer in Market Intelligence. IE, customers taken as a large group over a large period of time are not stupid. If Amazon is threatening to become a Monopoly, why do you think that is? There are certainly plenty of choices of digital readers and eBooks. So why such a majority swinging toward Amazon, if the product is so detrimental or harmful to consumers?

Even devices where the customers easily have a choice from all the retailers - like the iPAD - Amazon succeeds. Amazon is selling a great number of books to iPAD owners. hmmmmmm.

[eLiNK]

Originally Posted by Kitabi

I did not claim Amazon is evil so why the urge to prove Amazon is doing something good? I merely explained why proprietary formats are not good. Especially if a company can can get within striking distance of a monopoly or near monopoly position in it's industry.

I gave a very concrete example of MS Office to prove what can happen in such cases. Was MS Office a great product? Yes. Was MS very attentive to it's customers? Yes. Did the proprietariness of DOC, XLS and PPT formats cause problems later? Yes.

So, why such reassurance about the Kindle? A company with a dominant proprietary format will cause issues.

Anyway, I have long outstayed my welcome on this thread if there ever was one. Time to drop.

I know exactly what you mean.
Unfortunately, there are people who can see a big picture, and others who can't, for whatever reasons, or won't, because they are mainly interested in confirmation that their choice was correct.

[ProfCrash]

I do believe that the Nook and Kobo can read Sony's DRM and the Nook can read Kobos DRM. That is one of the strengths of the devices, they can buy from multiple bookstores and read a variety of DRM's.

The Kindle's strength is that Amazon has the best e-book store and so there is less need to look at different stores to see if your book is available.

[TallMomof2]

It doesn't matter what I read my books on if the file has DRM then it will be removed. The first time Amazon sold ebooks (DRMed PDFs) I bought maybe 10 ebooks from them. Amazon took down the server and I no longer have access to those 10 ebooks. Another example: Adobe removed an older DRM server and if you had not updated those ebooks you lost access to them. It was easy to miss the notice so more than a few people lost access.

DRMed music: I've lost access to mp3s because of removed DRM servers and computer crashes. Now, I only rip CDs or buy mp3s without DRM.

DRMed video: I used to run a Windows Media Center PC with Cablecard to record TV. I had hundreds of hours of movies and TV shows recorded and all had DRM but were flagged differently. When my motherboard crashed and I had to replace it it was impossible to renew my license and I lost access to all that video even the shows that were flagged "Copy Freely". There is no way to remove DRM. Now, I run SageTV and use the (quite legal) analog hole to record DRM free HD TV. The Cablecard is gone. I was able to rerecord some of the lost video. I have literally 10TB of recorded TV including movies, documentaries and TV series I enjoy. All without DRM.

As long as I keep everything backed up then barring a major catastrophe I will have access to all my media. The biggest lesson I've learned over the years is that DRM keeps customers from freely accessing their media. I will not purchase any media if it's not possible to remove the DRM when present.

I like my Kindle for one simple reason: Whispernet. It is so easy to purchase and download practically any book I wish to read. Not just from Amazon but from here at Mobileread and Feedbooks. My daughter and I were out of the house at a sports function and she wanted to read The Wizard of Oz on her Kindle. She was able to download it from Mobileread and start reading in a minute. To me, this is the killer feature, the ability to quickly download any available book anywhere, any time.

[FF2]

TallMomof2

I apparently "purchased" topaz drm-ed files. Purchased in quotes since they were freebies. But nonetheless, they are not easy to backup. Have you avoided such purchases whether free or not? I gather that even topaz can be backed up in a more tedious method. Maybe I should make it a point to read those first - just in case.