Book Page Numbers

[Amalthia]

I tend to prefer one page number for every turn of a page on the ebook reader. Right now the epub format is confusing the hell out of me because I have a book I'm reading that I know is over 200k words but it's only "530" pages when on my PRS-505 that would have been about 1500 pages in LRF format.

[JLeighs]

It was a little off-putting when I realized that there were percentages instead of page numbers when I first got the Kindle, but I've since come to appreciate it. When I'm reading a paper book, I am able to tell how far I am into the book just by comparing what I've read to what I haven't (meaning the overall thickness of the book...am I even making any sense? lol), so I can mentally correspond that with the percentages when reading on my Kindle.

[desertblues]

Originally Posted by emalvick

I was a PhD student in the past, and I can see where some of those here are coming from, but things were just as bad for printed documents as they are now with ebooks. With multiple editions of books, varying content, etc you had to really make sure your references were clean and accurate (total pages, edition number, etc).

I'm not sure why someone couldn't do something similar with ebooks. It is something that will have to be adopted through MLA or other formatting groups, but I don't see how identifying a specific location, the total number of locations, and even the file format couldn't work for ebooks and references.

A lot of the problems are going to exist as long as we have multiple formats. Right now, it will be epub vs. mobi vs. pdf.... Then, even if we get a standard format or standard method for ebooks and documents that work, we'll always have the issue of eboook vs. print. That's just how its going to be. Everyone is going to have to adapt to some extent be in the companies, the authors, or the consumers who do the reading. Locations do probably need changing, but I think it is a bit optimistic to think there will be one solution that works.

I feel it will be a long time before digital readers and their content can be used in academic research, exept perhaps for an global orientation on the subject. And also, not all can be, or should be digitalized.

In writing up my research I am glad I don't have to use annotations of an academic e-book. I mean: what is the standard? Will I be able to use those annotations or search in other places in that particular e-book in about 40 years from now? And on which device and in which format? And how will other people check my quotations and annotations in the meantime?

Literature in my field is not so popular that there are many editions of it, so references are clear, most of the time. As for the rest: I have to find most of my material in archives, where they are kept under lock and key and good conditions, accessible if you know where to look. But all of that is not digitalized, so it is a lot of legwork.

And also, sometimes, the typographical aspect of a book or paper is important to me. I don't know in advance which, and I wouldn't like some else, who digitalizes all that, to make that decision for me.

I still have a lot of reservations on the subject of Kindle+ academics and am rather intrigued if and when they'll going to use it.

[Rinzwind]

Oh things like this are likely to ruffle some feathers: the eBook readers are the 1st big change in the book industry since the invention of the printing press.

And most likely the average age off the people in the book industry is rather high compared to the people that use and like eBook readers. Mind you... those are the same people that claim young people should be reading more books. Well this is their opportunity to make something out of it and show riaa/mpaa how they should have handled music.

eBook readers are here to stay and the way annotation works now should be altered to take eBook readers into account. In 20, 25, 30 years all you get are probably ebooks and asking for the paper version will be ancient

[emalvick]

Originally Posted by desertblues

I feel it will be a long time before digital readers and their content can be used in academic research, exept perhaps for an global orientation on the subject. And also, not all can be, or should be digitalized.

In writing up my research I am glad I don't have to use annotations of an academic e-book. I mean: what is the standard? Will I be able to use those annotations or search in other places in that particular e-book in about 40 years from now? And on which device and in which format? And how will other people check my quotations and annotations in the meantime?

Literature in my field is not so popular that there are many editions of it, so references are clear, most of the time. As for the rest: I have to find most of my material in archives, where they are kept under lock and key and good conditions, accessible if you know where to look. But all of that is not digitalized, so it is a lot of legwork.

And also, sometimes, the typographical aspect of a book or paper is important to me. I don't know in advance which, and I wouldn't like some else, who digitalizes all that, to make that decision for me.

I still have a lot of reservations on the subject of Kindle+ academics and am rather intrigued if and when they'll going to use it.

Oh, by all means I agree with you. The citation issues you brought up are a big reason why I think things are going to take a while. I actually only rarely had some of the problems you (and I) talked about like editions, formats, etc., but I've seen such problems. In my field (earthquake engineering), things were so new that we actually relied on journals and conference papers, which are actually quite simple to reference no matter the format paper or pdf because one never has to note a specific page or location. Electronic copies are just as common in those items.

However, those electronic copies that are out there bring up an item that will only be a bigger problem and that is the longevity of a source. This has become a problem with conference proceedings that are becoming more electronic, yet their location is never consistent. Right now it is a matter of internet addresses, but the same type of thing will come up with e-readers and whether they still exist or not in 5, 20, or 100 years.

Technology is a challenge across the board. It moves faster than the standards ever bother to keep up with.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by kindlekitten

Jon is one of the original Sony fanboyz. he'll jump on any oppourtunity to diss a Kindle. pay no mind

It's not that at all. It's that I see people with a Kindle saying I want this or I need that and it turns out other brands of readers have those features. So my question is why buy a Kindle when what you want and/or need is not there but exists in other readers? ADE based readers have page numbers. Some ADE based readers have PDF reflow. So really it's a matter of if the features are not there, don't complain about them. Get a reader that has those features.

It's been said on MR many times. When you buy a reader, buy it for what it can do now and not what it might do sometime down the road. So buying a Kindle when you want/need features it doesn't have is silly. That would be like someone buying a Sony Reader and then complaining that it won't handle Amazon's eBooks.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by kevinp

Imagine reading the book on my Android phone... turn the page 10 times and still be on the same page (at least my Sony's only on the same page for two page turns). I'll take the % complete any day!

People talk about being on the same page as their teacher or whatever. Is the majority of ereader users students? I would've guessed the majority to be casual readers like me.

When you look at the ADE page numbers you do get like 123-124 of 432. That means the screen you are on is starting with page 123 and 124 starts someplace else on the page. So you don't get full pages multiple times.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Amalthia

I tend to prefer one page number for every turn of a page on the ebook reader. Right now the epub format is confusing the hell out of me because I have a book I'm reading that I know is over 200k words but it's only "530" pages when on my PRS-505 that would have been about 1500 pages in LRF format.

ePub bases page numbers on 1024 characters in the XML. So you get fairly consistent page numbers regardless of text size.

[desertblues]

QUOTE=Rinzwind;1186474]…………………………
eBook readers are here to stay and the way annotation works now should be altered to take eBook readers into account. In 20, 25, 30 years all you get are probably ebooks and asking for the paper version will be ancient....[/QUOTE]


Rinzwind: I do agree that ereaders are here to stay.
This exchange of thoughts about page-numbers however is not about the right to exist of the ereader, but exploring the use of locations as annotations in academic or other research. I have serious doubts on that subject and feel there's still a lot of work to be done.

As emalvick said; the location of digitalized proceeding is never consistent and consistency is what is needed for any semblance of sound research. And all findings must be able to stand some scrutiny, now and in the years to come. (BTW not by me in 40 years as I stated; a bit optimistic as I would be 97! ).

So, I feel the system of locations Kindle uses on their readers is not yet fit to be used in any kind of research or reference.

[baccilus]

Having Percentage with 2-3 places of decimals will solve all the Page number problems.

[desertblues]

Originally Posted by baccilus

Having Percentage with 2-3 places of decimals will solve all the Page number problems.

You just may be right.

[tomsem]

Originally Posted by baccilus

Having Percentage with 2-3 places of decimals will solve all the Page number problems.

Not really.

People who want page numbers want them for a variety of reasons (some more reasonable than others), and these requirements are in some conflict with each other.
- some people want the 'familiarity' of page numbers, don't care about whether these are absolute references, just want to know how many times they need to click Next to get to the end of a book.
- some people want page numbers that correspond with a particular print edition (for citation purposes)
- some people can't get used to Location numbers and need something else (like your high precision percentage) to measure reading progress
- some people like things the way the are and don't want anything to change

So in addressing these requirements, Amazon needs to be careful.

[baccilus]

Originally Posted by tomsem

Not really.

People who want page numbers want them for a variety of reasons (some more reasonable than others), and these requirements are in some conflict with each other.
- some people want the 'familiarity' of page numbers, don't care about whether these are absolute references, just want to know how many times they need to click Next to get to the end of a book.
- some people want page numbers that correspond with a particular print edition (for citation purposes)
- some people can't get used to Location numbers and need something else (like your high precision percentage) to measure reading progress
- some people like things the way the are and don't want anything to change

So in addressing these requirements, Amazon needs to be careful.

I think going with the most viable option would be the best thing to do. They can always have options for all of the formats of displaying progress. But I think displaying 2-3 places of decimals would be easy and really effective.

[Busirane]

I was recently reading Matthew Arnold's "Culture and Anarchy" on my K2, and it has physical page numbers corresponding to a specific print edition. They are embedded as [N] in the text; at first I took them for end notes, but once I realized they were page numbers, they became fairly unobtrusive. Here's an example of what I'm talking about: One screen on the Kindle might show

"This is some text on page 123 of a specific print edition. blah blah blah blah blah. This is the last text on that page [124] and this is the first text on page 124 of the specific print edition. blah blah blah."

Of course, the actual text was a lot more boring than "blah blah blah"!

[charonme]

Locations are a cool inovation, however in some rare cases page numbers are still vital even on ebook readers (especially when the footnotes, TOC or external references / quotations use them)