Amazon Defends Pedophile Book

[drofgnal]

Originally Posted by penartur

What are these ads about? Children, or rather adult prostitution?
There are ads in russian-language newspapers (usually the "gutter press") about sex on the phone, or about so-called "escort services"; but i guess any other country will have these too. Well, maybe, except for Muslims.

Yes most concern adults, but on some, yes I mean disturbing in the context of what this thread is about.

[penartur]

Originally Posted by crich70

Of course I think that happens the world over to an extent. It's the "it can't happen here" syndrome. No one thinks that such a thing can occur in their own backyard 'so to speak' but only in other places.

Of course, i don't think that "it can't happen here". I'm staggered not by such things happening in other countries, but by the scale, by amount of these events. While i agree that there could be a child prostitution in Russia, it is certainly not 50k in moscow. While i agree there are a pedophiles in Russia (Chikatilo immediately comes to mind), i highly doubt that there is so many victims. Certainly not enough for some books-related forum to has several of these among the limited number of its most active users.

[penartur]

Originally Posted by drofgnal

Yes most concern adults, but on some, yes I mean disturbing in the context of what this thread is about.

Hmm, i should sometime take a look on Moscow Times (freely-distributed english-language moscow newspaper, afaik it is the most popular of all english-language newspapers here). Never noticed such ads.

[drofgnal]

Originally Posted by penartur

Hmm, i should sometime take a look on Moscow Times (freely-distributed english-language moscow newspaper, afaik it is the most popular of all english-language newspapers here). Never noticed such ads.

Maybe they've cleaned up some. I haven't been there since before your move to Moscow. I went several times between 1993 and 2003. Things were a little hectic in the 90s. The last paper I saw was one a friend brought back this year, and it had some questionable ads, it was a Times (?) I believe.

On another note, I thoroughly enjoyed my time in Moscow. For an 800 year old city, its a nice city. I felt as safe going around there as I do any major city anywhere. I almost cringe and the influx of modern western architecture and highways which seems to be robbing Moscow of some of its heritage.

[penartur]

Originally Posted by drofgnal

Maybe they've cleaned up some. I haven't been there since before your move to Moscow. I went several times between 1993 and 2003.

Well, 1990-2000 was a distempered decade.

The last paper I saw was one a friend brought back this year, and it had some questionable ads, it was a Times (?) I believe.

Okay, i'll try to take a look on it.

On another note, I thoroughly enjoyed my time in Moscow. For an 800 year old city, its a nice city. I felt as safe going around there as I do any major city anywhere. I almost cringe and the influx of modern western architecture and highways which seems to be robbing Moscow of some of its heritage.

Actually, there is not too much of modern architecture and highways in a historical center of the city (that is, inside of Sadovoye/Garden Ring). There is a restoration of some old buildings; some new elite-class buildings are being built in accordance with surrounding architectural ensemble. My office is located near the Kremlin, and i really enjoy the surroundings
And pretty much everything outside of Garden Ring is a dormitory suburb since Khrushchev, so i can only welcome modern buildings and highways in these places

[drofgnal]

Originally Posted by penartur

Well, 1990-2000 was a distempered decade.

Okay, i'll try to take a look on it.

Actually, there is not too much of modern architecture and highways in a historical center of the city (that is, inside of Sadovoye/Garden Ring). There is a restoration of some old buildings; some new elite-class buildings are being built in accordance with surrounding architectural ensemble. My office is located near the Kremlin, and i really enjoy the surroundings
And pretty much everything outside of Garden Ring is a dormitory suburb since Khrushchev, so i can only welcome modern buildings and highways in these places

That's good to know. I was relying on what a buddy of mine told me. He may have been commenting on the suburbs that you drive through on the way from Sheremetevo airport.

[penartur]

Okay, here we go into a complete offtopic

Originally Posted by drofgnal

That's good to know. I was relying on what a buddy of mine told me. He may have been commenting on the suburbs that you drive through on the way from Sheremetevo airport.

Did he use a train express, or did he drive his own car?
In the latter case, he should have traveled through the Leningradskoye highway, which is (at least, that part of it which is inside the Moscow's borders) primarily built on so-called Stalin's architecture buildings. These are also quite good; here is the typical example of Stalin's architecture on Leningradskoye highway: http://fotki.yandex.ru/users/ymaps/view/46304?page=699
In the former case, yes, that railway line is going through nearly the worst suburbs of Moscow. There is only one district worse than that, called Kapotnya, you can see how bad it is by the photo http://fotki.yandex.ru/users/stanisl.../34879/?page=3

[karunaji]

You just have to understand that there was no sex in the Soviet Union. So, all the bad things like prostitution, drugs, homosexuality, HIV infection and child abuse is surely only an evil influence from the West since the iron curtain was brought down.

[penartur]

Originally Posted by karunaji

You just have to understand that there was no sex in the Soviet Union. So, all the bad things like prostitution, drugs, homosexuality, HIV infection and child abuse is surely only an evil influence from the West since the iron curtain was brought down.

As i have heard, actually in that infamous conference was a dialogue like this:
U.S.: "Our TV commercials are full of sex, and what about yours?"
S.U.: "No, we don't have sex [on TV], we're ultimately against it."
S.U.2: "Well, we have sex, but we have no commercials."
But even russians now are saying that there was no sex in the Soviet Union

PS: There is a homosexuality and drugs and prostitution. I was an active user of Moscow State University once. Some of that forum's active users are gays. Some are using drugs (like marijuana or even LSD or stronger). I doubt there are HIV victims or prostitution users/victims, but that's just because of unrepresentative sample - MSU students in general are smarter than others (or else they would not entered MSU); i believe this applies to any relatively unknown (as opposed to e.g. facebook) thematical forum like mobileread. But nobody on that forum said they were a child abuse victims, as opposed to mobileread. So, i may conclude that either the number of child abuse victims in Russia is lower than that of U.S. or that MSU forum's users are quite reticent (which is, in my experience, far from the truth).

[Eastlondonboy]

Interesting reading comments on Moscow - it certainly is an interesting city. The problem now lies in the fact that it is controlled by the Russian mafia and criminalistic elements. A parallel is to 1920s prohibition era in Chicago. The country is basically run by gangsters, which is a very sad fact, given its great cultural history.

[Sonist]

Originally Posted by crich70

You also have to take the text in context of the times in which it was written though Sonist. Back then the eldest son stood to inherit the major part of the family goods and if a girl wasn't still a virgin she could conceivably (pardon the pun) be already with child by another man....

The problem is that millions today look to the same Iron Age gibberish for moral and "spiritual" guidance.

And I bet that I can find more current news stories about violence and murder committed because of biblical ideas, than stories about murder and violence committed because of the ideas presented in the book just banned by Amazon.

P.S. But even if we consider the "context of the times" and make a comparison to Iron Age Greek texts, or even much older ones, like the Iliad, the biblical texts are still hardly worthy of admiration.

Originally Posted by penartur

...

PS: There is a homosexuality and drugs and prostitution. I was an active user of Moscow State University once. Some of that forum's active users are gays. Some are using drugs (like marijuana or even LSD or stronger). I doubt there are HIV victims or prostitution users/victims, but that's just because of unrepresentative sample - MSU students in general are smarter than others (or else they would not entered MSU); i believe this applies to any relatively unknown (as opposed to e.g. facebook) thematical forum like mobileread. But nobody on that forum said they were a child abuse victims, as opposed to mobileread. So, i may conclude that either the number of child abuse victims in Russia is lower than that of U.S. or that MSU forum's users are quite reticent (which is, in my experience, far from the truth).

Heh, the child pornography source I had posted earlier sites a Russian organization, so I wouldn't dismiss it so easily as fairy tales for First World consumption. Anecdotal evidence notwithstanding (I have never seen any child prostitutes in Moscow or St. Petersburg either )

But apart from the child pornography issue, it really makes very little sense to assume that somehow in the US or the West in general (there is a large portion of Europeans, Canadians and Australians here), there would somehow be a larger percentage of child molestations.

What makes more sense is that the West has had a few decades more on the psychoanalyst couch, and a few more decades to raise awareness and make it O.K. to talk about these things.

BTW, are you suggesting that HIV patients are not smart, or that MSU graduates do not use prostitution services?

[penartur]

Originally Posted by Eastlondonboy

Interesting reading comments on Moscow - it certainly is an interesting city. The problem now lies in the fact that it is controlled by the Russian mafia and criminalistic elements. A parallel is to 1920s prohibition era in Chicago. The country is basically run by gangsters, which is a very sad fact, given its great cultural history.

What-what-what?
Do you mean the polar bears mafia, who are travelling all around the city in ushankas, playing balalaikas and drinking vodka from samovars?

[penartur]

Originally Posted by Sonist

Heh, the child pornography source I had posted earlier sites a Russian organization,

The link contains several excerpts from articles by different organizations.
There is a reference to some "The Ministry of Interior" in

The Ministry of Interior estimates that up to 17,000 children are exploited in prostitution in the country, but the actual number is believed to be much higher. In Moscow alone, experts reckon that between 20,000 and 30,000 children may be victimised through prostitution, some raising this figure as high as 50,000.

Although it is called "The Ministry of Internal Affairs", i cannot find that number on our Ministry of Internal Affairs website. Actually, it references on another ECPAT article from 2003, " ECPAT International & the Ukrainian Institute of Social Research. Analysis of the Situation and Institutions in the Field of Commercial Sexual Exploitation of Children (CSEC) and Counter-CSEC Activities in Russia. November 2003.", to the page 51 concening "The Ministry of Interior" estimates, and to the page 66 concerning "experts" estimates. Oddly enough, but it seems that the referenced article is not available anywhere.

First of all, it is quite odd, how someone who is trying to say about current condition, references to the article from 2005, which references to the article from 2003, which references to god know what.

Then, even if Ministry of Internal Affairs actually made such a estimate, it means that prostitution (or what did they meant) is about 1/2000 rate between children. 50000 children in moscow is about 1/40, note the difference! While the former might be, just might be, true, latter is completely ridiculous.

But apart from the child pornography issue, it really makes very little sense to assume that somehow in the US or the West in general (there is a large portion of Europeans, Canadians and Australians here), there would somehow be a larger percentage of child molestations.

Not the West in general, but just US.
By the way, i've just thought of one possible reason which greatly makes sense imho. Majority of the people in Russia are living in a "apartment houses" (i hope i picked a right word) and hardly know their neighbours. Rest are living in a villages, they are someone like peasants, and not only child molestations, but even adultery is extremely discouraged there.
In USA, from the other side, many people are living in their own houses in suburbs (am i right?) Social connections between neighbours are heavy and numerous, so there could be many "family friends" of the neighbours, and one of those friend could happen not to be such a friend. Also, the maniac could relatively easy trace their potential victim to the victim's house and then e.g. break in through the window. In the city, however, the maniac will only be able to trace a victim to an "apartment house", and then he won't even know in which flat the victim lives, not to say that breaking in through the window on a 27th floor is a bit difficult.
That's purely my guesswork; but the majority of the cases in USA i've heard about are happening in a suburbs...

BTW, are you suggesting that HIV patients are not smart, or that MSU graduates do not use prostitution services?

I'm suggesting, that, although there are smart HIV patients and dumb MSU students, generally HIV patients (again, that's purely my guess work) don't know how to make safe sex = not so bright, and generally MSU students are smart enough (or else they wouldn't reach MSU), so, the probability of randomly picked MSU student to be a HIV patient is significantly lower than it is for randomly picked person on a street.

[kindlekitten]

so the kerfluffle over pedobook is over? we're on to Russian porn?

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by kindlekitten

so the kerfluffle over pedobook is over? we're on to Russian porn?