Amazon Defends Pedophile Book

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Piper_

Well said.

And if people had not responded to all the media buzz the way they did, the pedophiles would have been even more emboldened.

If you follow crime boards, you see so many horrors committed by repeat offenders who had no business around kids, it's an atrocity. Our system is broken.

This is a little off topic, but one of my other pet peeves about sex crime laws is that it lumps in things like statutory rape between teens with actual pedophilia and rape. Some states are worse than others; a few at least have Romeo and Juliet clauses.

That failure to distinguish just dilutes the usefulness of the registry, and worse, subjects kids to being tagged forever with the same scarlet letter as the rapists and pedos.

And "sexting" can get a kid branded as a sex offender for life. That's wrong in most cases.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by crich70

Actually I would think that it could be argued that Amazon isn't physically selling the book on Australian soil if you think about it. The book was put up for sale in cyberspace which technically has no national boundaries applied to it as it doesn't exist within the material world. The end user however does so he/she would be responsible for the media crossing over into the national boarders of Australia. The book itself would still be immaterial in nature (being a kindle file) but it would be stored in a physical location (the hard drive of the computer it was downloaded to or the memory of the Kindle device). The net is everywhere and yet no where, but the hard drive of a single computer, or the memory of a Kindle device has a physical existence. That's how it works with Geographical restrictions as well isn't it? A person can see a book they want to buy and things look good for downloading it, but then the internet gateway (or something) picks up the info. that the end user's computer or Kindle is in a part of the world where book X can't currently be sold.

an eBook purchase is considered made where the person buying the eBook is at the time of purchase. So anyone in Australia buying that eBook would be buying it in Australia. Doesn't matter that it's held in a server in the USA. It just matters where the buyer is at the time of purchase.

[Sonist]

Originally Posted by penartur

Can you please provide me a proof link?...

There was quite a bit of coverage a few years ago, but of course I don't remember the sources. I did a quick search and here is an example from http://www.gvnet.com/childprostitution/Russia.htm:

"Russia is now one of the main producers of child pornography in the world, and it registers significant incidences of child prostitution and child trafficking for sexual purposes, according to the Russian National Consultation on the Commercial Sexual Exploitation of Children.

St. Petersburg and northwestern Russia report a high incidence of sex tourism, which is widely advertised on the Internet and is aimed at people from neighboring Scandinavian countries. Child prostitution is the most common form of child exploitation in that region"

Originally Posted by penartur

... Amazon is a privately-held company, they could do what they want. Of course, they could as well ban Harry Potter from sale in their stores - just because their CEO doesn't like the appearance of Rowling....

Funny you should mention Harry Potter

Check these out:

School bans Harry Potter

Emirates ban Potter book

'Satanic' Harry Potter books burnt

Banning all sorts of books is alive and well, making zealots proud. It's all in the eye and mind (or lack thereof) of the beholder.

[penartur]

Originally Posted by Sonist

There was quite a bit of coverage a few years ago, but of course I don't remember the sources. I did a quick search and here is an example from http://www.gvnet.com/childprostitution/Russia.htm:

Well, while i agree that maybe there is adult prostitution of such a scale, their claims of child prostitution are seeming odd to me. E.g.

Originally Posted by gvnet

Engaging minors with learning difficulties or from rural areas or provincial towns in the sex industry is a growing trend.

There is not a single reason for minor to move from rural area or provincial town to Moscow; however such a move is quite common in Central Russia at the age of 17-19, when someone finishes the high school.

Originally Posted by gvnet

Children work in informal retail services, sell goods on the street, wash cars, make deliveries, collect trash and beg.

It is a complete nonsense.
Large retail stores are employing 18 to 25-30 years old women, rarely men as their shop assistants; and smaller retail stores do not have shop assistants at all.
I don't quite understand what they mean by "sell goods on the street", but if it is about street stands - again, usually the "salespersons" are 40 to 60 years old.
What about washing cars - come on, Russia is not a New York
Although i'm ordering something with delivery quite often, there was not a single case of delivery made by someone younger than 25-30.
Some homeless people are collecting trash; these are usually 50 or more years old.
There are some begging gypsies' children, but not of that scale (and i believe there are gypsies in every other country).

The whole page seems like some fairy tales about Russia for "first-world countries". I wonder why didn't they said that little boys are playing balalaika while being raped by a polar bear for a samovar of vodka
Half of the claims about prostitution are likely about adult prostitution; and another half seems to be just a nonsense.

Funny you should mention Harry Potter

Check these out:

School bans Harry Potter

Emirates ban Potter book

'Satanic' Harry Potter books burnt

Banning all sorts of books is alive and well, making zealots proud. It's all in the eye and mind (or lack thereof) of the beholder.

I was trying to say that the store, as a privately-held company, may do their own business decisions. Amazon is not government or the school council. Consider you've opened your little book store, where you're selling only your most beloved books, and then, by mistake, a pedobook will appear in a pile of your beloved book, and some people will blame you for throwing it out.

PS:

[Sonist]

Hey, I was just trying to point out that child sexual abuse is not something prevalent in the West and not found in the East, but that it is simply less spoken of and less reported (particularly in the past) in Russia and Eastern Europe.

As to Harry Potter, I simply found it ironic that you should mention a book which roused a whole lot of bizarre opposition from mainly religious quarters.

And yes, Amazon, as a private business, is within its right to decline to carry the book (although, because of the Amazon's size (responsible for close to a quarter of US online sales), a court may disagree if censorship case was brought in, on something like "public forum" grounds).

At the same time, Amazon waffled: at first they declined to remove the book, then they succumbed to the pressure to ban from the store.

I would have respected them more if they stood their ground, on principle alone.

[penartur]

Originally Posted by Sonist

Hey, I was just trying to point out that child sexual abuse is not something prevalent in the West and not found in the East, but that it is simply less spoken of and less reported (particularly in the past) in Russia and Eastern Europe.

You didn't convinced me in that. You only gave the link on an article full of stereotypes, all verifiable claims in which are false.
And i didn't say anything about the West. EU is also the west for us

As to Harry Potter, I simply found it ironic that you should mention a book which roused a whole lot of bizarre opposition from mainly religious quarters.

I know about this opposition, but i didn't find a better example. Lord of the Rings? His Dark Materials?

[joblack]

Originally Posted by tubemonkey

As long as it's legal to sell such works, the morality of such sales is in the eye of the beholder.

As long as it's legal I don't have to like it to accept the global promise of 'freedom of speech'.

I have to say I don't know the content but as far as I know it could be also fitting for (both) minor teenage couples where sexual education is an important part (e.g. as a 14 years old boy you don't want to get your 13 years old girlfriend pregnant).

Anyway, I'm pretty sure most of the people who bought the book after the blog reports were curious about the content and not particular pedophiles. So this discussion overheated without any real reason.

If you watch Dexter it might be an education how to be serial killer. I didn't see that much outrage about these episodes.

Of course I don't condone the one or the other but it's almost comical funny how some people are going mad over an (as described in techcrunch) bad written e-book no one cared before the blog reports.

[Kumabjorn]

Originally Posted by Sonist

At the same time, Amazon waffled: at first they declined to remove the book, then they succumbed to the pressure to ban from the store.

I would have respected them more if they stood their ground, on principle alone.

The bizzare thing is that they probably did.

Obviously I'm not privy to Amazon's internal handling, but I have no compulsion about a likely scenario in which an Amazon employee acted exactly according to company policy. Internally they likely work along a creed of "Everything to Everyone" so when asked about the book, said employee likely thought it was some kind of third rate cheap knock-off of Lolita, hence defended its existence. Then someone at Amazon took the trouble to begin reading it and said; "Whooa, do we really need to take Everything this literally?" and sent it upstairs with a memo. Those attuned to Amazon's status in the retail world likely agreed and realized that the line for Everything had been challenged, time to pull the book from sales.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by joblack

...

If you watch Dexter it might be an education how to be serial killer. I didn't see that much outrage about these episodes.
......

THIS!

[astrangerhere]

Originally Posted by joblack

As long as it's legal I don't have to like it to accept the global promise of 'freedom of speech'.
---
If you watch Dexter it might be an education how to be serial killer. I didn't see that much outrage about these episodes.

Are you referring to the "free speech" right that would involve the government not barring you from saying something? Or just the ideal?

As to your point about Dexter, I think that is a desensitized issue. If you turn on your TV any night of the week, your odds are likely 7 in 10 to hit a show about crime or criminal investigation, almost all of which involve murder. The murder-mystery book industry is HUGE. As an aside, in my work, I HATE crime TV shows because they give juries unreasonable expectations about how evidence is actually found and handled. But again, that is a post for another time.

But child abuse, especially of the sexual variety, is a third rail. When I was a prosecutor, I specialized in child abuse cases, so I've seen my fair share. And when dealing with witnesses and victims, one thing has never changed - no one wants to talk about it, mostly because they want to believe it doesn't happen. Then an instruction manual of sorts shows up at a major book retailer and its just more than the common man is ready to deal with. I think sexual child abuse is still so repulsing to the collective moral conscience of the majority of people (politics notwithstanding), that everyone felt the need to shout down this whole situation. Its starting to turn into a "who can be more indignant" contest between "free speech" proponents and "this is reprehinsible" people.

[crich70]

You also have to take the text in context of the times in which it was written though Sonist. Back then the eldest son stood to inherit the major part of the family goods and if a girl wasn't still a virgin she could conceivably (pardon the pun) be already with child by another man. There was no certain way to be sure of such things back then (There had been a test that involved a plant whose name I forget that could tell if a woman was with child, but the plant was hunted to extinction by human gathering). And there was no DNA paternity testing back then either. So there was good reason for them to want to make sure things were as they should be. Plus it was a patriarchial society as well.

I'd guess the same thing that goes for homosexuality and crimes against children in Russia also applies to serial killers. I know there have been a few but I wager people were shocked when the crimes of each came to light. Of course I think that happens the world over to an extent. It's the "it can't happen here" syndrome. No one thinks that such a thing can occur in their own backyard 'so to speak' but only in other places.

Originally Posted by Sonist

While I agree with much of what you say, technically, most of us live in common law countries (even most states of Europe have evolved local code variations).

Also, as someone who grew up in Eastern Europe, I would guess that Russia has at least as much child abuse as the West, but it is much less discussed in the open, and often taken less seriously (Russia and parts of Asia seemed to be be in the news a few years ago as the major sources of child pornography).

The media in the West goes into feeding frenzy on some topics, and child abuse is one of them. In Russia, as in much of Eastern Europe, child abuse rarely made the news, just as homosexuality barely existed

There is also a significant divergence as to what is considered a child: in some states in the US a 19 year old can be convicted for sleeping with his 17 year old girlfriend, while in Spain the age of consent is 13, according to Wikipedia. I remember when Roman Polanski was in the news, someone mentioned that at the time when he raped the 12 year old girl, the age of consent in France was 12 - thus he could not be extradited back to the US (have not looked this up to verify).

Anyway, I do agree that a book should not be banned, period. Amazon was in the right for defending the right to sell the book, and is in the wrong for taking it down.

BTW, I doubt the book in question advocated anything as violent as this:

"If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her ... and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate: And the damsel's father shall say ... these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. ... But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die." Deuteronomy 22:13-21

[penartur]

Originally Posted by astrangerhere

I think sexual child abuse is still so repulsing to the collective moral conscience of the majority of people (politics notwithstanding),

Someone said here that freedom of speech is, mainly, freedom of minority speech. It is not so hard to gave freedom of speech to majority; minority freedom is what makes it an actual freedom.

[astrangerhere]

Originally Posted by penartur

Someone said here that freedom of speech is, mainly, freedom of minority speech. It is not so hard to gave freedom of speech to majority; minority freedom is what makes it an actual freedom.

"Free speech is still free speech, even when you don't like what's being said," is a quote from my law school days that comes to mind.

Though I still contend that this particular issue has nothing to do with free speech. That right, granted by the 1st Amendment, has only to do with the government restraining speech. Nothing to do with a private entity chosing to no longer distribute a book due to a business decision.

[drofgnal]

Originally Posted by penartur

Well, while i agree that maybe there is adult prostitution of such a scale, their claims of child prostitution are seeming odd to me. E.g.

There is not a single reason for minor to move from rural area or provincial town to Moscow; however such a move is quite common in Central Russia at the age of 17-19, when someone finishes the high school.

It is a complete nonsense.
Large retail stores are employing 18 to 25-30 years old women, rarely men as their shop assistants; and smaller retail stores do not have shop assistants at all.
I don't quite understand what they mean by "sell goods on the street", but if it is about street stands - again, usually the "salespersons" are 40 to 60 years old.
What about washing cars - come on, Russia is not a New York
Although i'm ordering something with delivery quite often, there was not a single case of delivery made by someone younger than 25-30.
Some homeless people are collecting trash; these are usually 50 or more years old.
There are some begging gypsies' children, but not of that scale (and i believe there are gypsies in every other country).

The whole page seems like some fairy tales about Russia for "first-world countries". I wonder why didn't they said that little boys are playing balalaika while being raped by a polar bear for a samovar of vodka
Half of the claims about prostitution are likely about adult prostitution; and another half seems to be just a nonsense.


I was trying to say that the store, as a privately-held company, may do their own business decisions. Amazon is not government or the school council. Consider you've opened your little book store, where you're selling only your most beloved books, and then, by mistake, a pedobook will appear in a pile of your beloved book, and some people will blame you for throwing it out.

PS:

I've been to Moscow several times and generally agree with your assessment. On the other hand, I find many of the personnal/classified ads in the english Moscow Tribune (available in western hotels) to be quite disturbing.

[penartur]

Originally Posted by drofgnal

I've been to Moscow several times and generally agree with your assessment.

Just in case, to make things clear, i live in Moscow since 2004, before that i was living in Yekaterinburg, and i'm visiting St.Petersburg quite often.

On the other hand, I find many of the personnal ads in the english Moscow Tribune (available in western hotels) to be quite disturbing.

What are these ads about? Children, or rather adult prostitution?
There are ads in russian-language newspapers (usually the "gutter press") about sex on the phone, or about so-called "escort services"; but i guess any other country will have these too. Well, maybe, except for Muslims.