Texas Board of Education at it again Banning textbooks

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by SameOldStory

Thanks Kenny. I thought that was a new story.

What's the link?

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=100313

Great vid at the link supplied there. 1/2 hour interview with Obama about education.

[SameOldStory]

Thanks, again.

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by nguirado

the left in the West has a long history of antagonism towards Christianity, which stands in the way of many of its dreams.

I'll agree with that-- Christians stand in the way of many of my dreams-- dreams of fully equal rights (including marrage) for gays, dreams of women continuing to have abortion rights, dreams of serious science literacy in the US... yes, you make a true statement. The struggle of the past decades and centuries has been to gain rights that go above and beyond what Christians thought was exactly as things should be.

In my kids school, Aztec dancers were much more frequent than anything remotely Christian even though most parents were Christians. Weird, huh?

Maybe because they are trying to teach students things that they don't already know? American culture is steeped in Christian cultural references-- schools are trying to teach them about things they might never hear of otherwise.

I've already posted this in another thread, but:

http://www.infidels.org/misc/humor.archive/lioaca.html

[tompe]

Originally Posted by nguirado

Let me demonstrate the difficulty:

You can't talk about history without talking about religion- a lot. Sorry. If you mention it, you have to talk about its effect on society (this doesn't have to do with a supreme being- I reject your analysis).

Now, you can talk about it in a positive way or a negative way. You can mention the hospitals, universities, the increase in dignity for slaves and women (who were nothing in pagan Europe), the preservation of antiquity, "peace of God," etc. or you can talk about the Crusades (which are much more complicated, as I've mentioned).

If you are talking about consequences of something you should mention the consequences you have scientific support for. (And some of the things you mention there is no support for if you mean consequence that should not have happened otherwise if religion had not existed.).

[NetCat99]

Freedom of though
Why we need it?

We need it because no one is absolutely right in anything over the others.

To the one who is right over the others,
we served as slaves
and died as slaves
for we were told
"dying is right"
and
dying was right

To the ideas that is right over the others,
we offered our souls
and voided ourselves
so empty were we that
we died as we were told
"dying is right"
and
dying was right

never till this morning did we ever cry
hell with the rightness
and awoken to the fact that,
like we are all different,
there are different wrongness and rightness
to each of us
and dying may not be right to us

To let go of the freedom of thought is to be no human
and to force others is to subjugate
The evil is the rightness, as it denies all else.

I guess I can never hope to be an poet, but I wish you got what I mean...
You people can get rid of all Muslims but it won't end there, as there have never been and shall never be an authentic christian.
If you Americans want more peer pressure, that's fine, but I believe that life is not going to be any easier by that.

I'm not an American, so it's not my business, but you should think twice before you throw your freedom away as you can normally never reclaim it.
And letting the government control what you read and so on is a first step towards losing your freedom of thought and others.

[GeoffC]

This may be an appropriate stage in this discussion for some deep breaths before something is said that pours oil on the fire ....

Nice poem, by the by .....

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

Ideology vs. religion...To quote Bullwinkle (out of context), "There's a difference?"

What's the difference between promoting a defined religion or Marxist dialectic?

The difference is that the government's not allowed to support religious activities; it *is* allowed to support other ideologies. (Sorting out "what is a religion" can be another nightmare, but that's mostly not part of this debate. It does get entertaining when some sects of Christianity claim their religious beliefs are secular.)

Originally Posted by nguirado

You can't talk about history without talking about religion- a lot.

Agreed.

You can say that saying positive things about the effects of Christianity is "promoting" it, but then why isn't saying negative things attacking it, which is also bad, no?

"Saying positive things" is not promoting it. "Only reporting those historical events which show it in a good light, and skipping over those that modern people would find abhorrent," is promoting it. Same for the other direction: saying it's done evil things is not attacking it; saying it's done evil things without mentioning the good is attacking it.

Now, to return to a previous theme. Islam and other religions are treated more respectfully by liberals because those are seen as the oppressed religions in the West and the left in the West has a long history of antagonism towards Christianity, which stands in the way of many of its dreams.

Do you believe that Islam, Buddhism, Hindu religions, Paganism, and Judaism are not oppressed religions in the US?

Left histories treat Aztec religion more respectfully than Christianity. In my kids school, Aztec dancers were much more frequent than anything remotely Christian even though most parents were Christians. Weird, huh?

This is probably not the place for the lecture about how any religious rites mostly practiced by dark-skinned people was considered, for a long time, "not a religion" but a "quaint folk-culture practice."

Originally Posted by ardeegee

I'll agree with that-- Christians stand in the way of many of my dreams-- dreams of fully equal rights (including marrage) for gays, dreams of women continuing to have abortion rights, dreams of serious science literacy in the US... yes, you make a true statement. The struggle of the past decades and centuries has been to gain rights that go above and beyond what Christians thought was exactly as things should be.

It's not Christianity that stands in the way, but some sects of it. Portugal and Spain are hardly known as hotbeds of liberal or Islamic thinking, and they allow same-sex marriage. Abortion rights are common throughout Europe.

Science literacy, at this point, isn't so much waiting on Christianity (although some sects are interfering with it) but adequate funding for competent teaching methods.

[nguirado]

Originally Posted by ardeegee

I'll agree with that-- Christians stand in the way of many of my dreams-- dreams of fully equal rights (including marrage) for gays, dreams of women continuing to have abortion rights, dreams of serious science literacy in the US... yes, you make a true statement. The struggle of the past decades and centuries has been to gain rights that go above and beyond what Christians thought was exactly as things should be.



Maybe because they are trying to teach students things that they don't already know? American culture is steeped in Christian cultural references-- schools are trying to teach them about things they might never hear of otherwise.

I've already posted this in another thread, but:

http://www.infidels.org/misc/humor.archive/lioaca.html

So, we agree. The problem, then, is the same. When mentioning religion (Christianity, really), should we focus on the positive or what's considered the negative? See, the issue stripped bare.

[GeoffC]

Originally Posted by nguirado

So, we agree. The problem, then, is the same. When mentioning religion (Christianity, really), should we focus on the positive or what's considered the negative? See, the issue stripped bare.

Why highlight Christianity ?

[Falcao]

I ain't no monkey!

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

It's not Christianity that stands in the way, but some sects of it.

I agree-- not all Christians stand in the way-- but the majority of the people who do stand in the way self-identify as Christians and accredit their religion as the reason for their standing in the way. It is a "not all doctors are dentists but all dentists are doctors" thing.

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by nguirado

So, we agree. The problem, then, is the same. When mentioning religion (Christianity, really), should we focus on the positive or what's considered the negative? See, the issue stripped bare.

The problem being that "positive" and "negative" are subjective opinions. Ever see clips of the movie Jesus Camp? There are plenty of people who would nod along in agreement for the "positive" things being said and done in that documentary, and others who would recoil in horror at it. So, depending on your ideology, the same thing can represent the positive or the negative.



(Three guesses which of the two views I hold.)

[nguirado]

Let's not get obtuse. Most people think hospitals and universities are good things as are helping the poor and protecting human rights. What you seem to mean by "not supporting religion" is to not say positive things about the EFFECTS (not theology) for fear that people might think it's not that bad. If you mention it, you have to decide what to include and what to leave out. Leftists don't feel threatened by Islam or Aztecs so they talk about them more and present them more positively.

So, let's not pretend this argument is anything other than what it is, a battle for which narrative is supreme in schools.

[ardeegee]

Originally Posted by nguirado

What you seem to mean by "not supporting religion" is to not say positive things about the EFFECTS (not theology) for fear that people might think it's not that bad.

You say that even after the clip I just posted, when it should very clear that I'm talking about the theology? You have a preconception burned into your brain about what liberals are supposed to be thinking, and there is nothing that will be able to sway you from that preconception. I see no point in any further attempts to address you on this.

[nguirado]

Exactly how would Jesus Camp be relevant to broader American history? Should we mention all of the other thousands of religious retreats (marriage, etc.) that occur every day in America? Why not?