Man Booker Prize shortlist announced

[charleski]

Originally Posted by TGS

Your point was that the gender break down of Booker winners contained no evidence of gender bias. I re-framed your claim to point out that it implied that about two thirds of winners were men. Does that not prove, just as a statistical matter, that the Booker is biased in favour of men?

No it doesn't. Any variance in favour of either gender is insignificant.

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by TGS

And why are there more male authors than female authors I wonder?

Maybe the reason the greatest artists tend to be male is because they're striving for some form of 'immortality', akin to having children.
"As long as men can think or men can see, so long lives this..." as Shakespeare wrote about one of his sonnets.

There is also the notion that men's abilities span a broader spectrum than women's.
Look for the best and worst examples of what humans can accomplish, and you're likely to encounter a preponderance of males in both cases.

[HarryT]

The art world, rightly or wrongly, is male dominated. Can you name a famous woman composer, or artist? I don't think I could.

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by HarryT

The art world, rightly or wrongly, is male dominated. Can you name a famous woman composer, or artist? I don't think I could.

Sally Beamish. Fanny Mendlesohn is often mentioned. There's another one called Gubaidinova or something (I'm not gonna cheat by Googling - hence all these spellings are wrong ). There was a famous British female composer from around the 20's whose name escapes me at the moment - Edith someone or other I think.
There are quite a few modern ones who get commissions; there was some awful din on Radio 3 yesterday by a lady composer who'd been inspired by Tarot cards to inflict a racket on the rest of us.

How could I forget Hildegard of Bingen - the most famous of the lot!

Ok, just Googled to satisfy my curiosity, turns out 'Edith someone' was actually Ethyl Smyth. And 'Gubaidinova' is Sofia Gubaidulina.

Lady GaGa

[HarryT]

OK, but I'm sure you'd agree that they are a tiny, tiny minority compared with the number of male composers you could think of .

[Sparrow]

I would so agree.

[igorsk]

Originally Posted by HarryT

The art world, rightly or wrongly, is male dominated. Can you name a famous woman composer, or artist? I don't think I could.

You've probably never heard of them but my two favorite composers are women - Yoko Kanno and Yuki Kajiura.
Yoko Kanno is just incredible. She has produced probably over a couple hundred of high-quality, original, varied soundtrack albums. She can do almost any genre you can name - jazz, techno, full-scale symphonic orchestra, R'n'B, electronic, straight pop, commercial jingles - often all of them inside the same album. She also very rarely repeats herself unlike many other soundtracks which often have to be padded to full length with the "main theme" in several variations.
Kajiura is less famous and less prolific but I really like her synth/classic mix of music. What's remarkable is that she doesn't have a musical education - she graduated and started working as a programmer and had to learn many things "on the job".

[TGS]

Originally Posted by HarryT

The art world, rightly or wrongly, is male dominated. Can you name a famous woman composer, or artist? I don't think I could.

Which brings us back to why the Orange Prize is no bad thing!

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by TGS

Which brings us back to why the Orange Prize is no bad thing!

If they only won an orange I would have no objection.

[Ea]

Methinks the guys complain too much!

Originally Posted by TGS

Which brings us back to why the Orange Prize is no bad thing!

Yes.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by GERGE

The fact is there are more male authors than female. 30:70 is normal.

No, the fact is more male authors are *published* than female.

Hence the need for minority awards--not because "they can't compete on a fair field," but because the field is not fair. If male and female authors are roughly equally talented, and awards are unbiased, then female authors will win roughly 30% of the awards--which implies to future authors & readers that women write less than half as many excellent books as men.

Minority-eligible awards are designed to offset the bias that already exists in the publishing industry by showcasing works that were drowned out by sheer numbers of the majority group. Those awards fight the inertia of centuries of bias that may no longer be consciously applied, but continues because "it's what's comfortable."

(And when was the last time a male author was told, "I'm sorry; we've already got a novel this season about a straight white man. Do you think you could write something else?")

[TGS]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

No, the fact is more male authors are *published* than female.

Hence the need for minority awards--not because "they can't compete on a fair field," but because the field is not fair. If male and female authors are roughly equally talented, and awards are unbiased, then female authors will win roughly 30% of the awards--which implies to future authors & readers that women write less than half as many excellent books as men.

Minority-eligible awards are designed to offset the bias that already exists in the publishing industry by showcasing works that were drowned out by sheer numbers of the majority group. Those awards fight the inertia of centuries of bias that may no longer be consciously applied, but continues because "it's what's comfortable."

(And when was the last time a male author was told, "I'm sorry; we've already got a novel this season about a straight white man. Do you think you could write something else?")

Excellently articulated Elfwreck, though it's worth pointing out that, whilst women constitute a minority of published authors, they do not constitute a minority of people.

[SensualPoet]

Originally Posted by GERGE

I read three books from the longlist but only Room made it into the shortlist.

So, what did you think of Emma Donoghue's Room?

A writer living in London, Ont., has joined two-time Man Booker winner Australian author Peter Carey on the short list for one of the world's most influential literary prizes. Emma Donoghue, who was born in Dublin but has lived in Canada for about a decade, was nominated for her novel Room, just out in the U.K. and Ireland and to be published in North America in mid-September, according to the author's website. Howard Jacobson, Andrea Levy, Damon Galgut and Tom McCarthy make up the field of six authors on the short list for the 2010 Man Booker Prize.

Read more: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/On...#ixzz0zAUEHqVR

And, did anyone else read anything on the shortlist?

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

No, the fact is more male authors are *published* than female.

Is there a source for the figures?
Perusing the fiction shelves of my local bookstore, I don't notice a gender discrepancy.

[beppe]

I want to add two comments to this thread.
About literary prizes
in my country, that has a decent tradition and a normal level of fruition, there are several literary prizes. I make a point of honor not to read the books that are acclaimed, and to look with suspicion at the laureates. I got the impression that the prizes are in large part a PR/marketing operation, and in the remaining part maneuvers of territorial occupation by "political" sects. "political" is intended in the most unspecified sense. "sects" literary (a pun)

I wonder if in US, Commonwealth and Scandinavia these observations could be shared and in which measure. I tend to trust more those than the Latins, but somehow I am skeptical.

About gender in art and professions
This thread is about literary prizes, but it might be that my comment that addresses more general situations is appropriate.
After so many years of struggles, after so many of my years spent assisting to the struggle and often being personally involved in it, like everybody else, I reached a personal conclusion.

It is better to forget about gender and it is better to let things go without any consideration for it.

Example from real life

Spoiler:

I am involved in a powerful professional organization, international and very influential. There are much less women than men in that profession, although the discrepancy in number is not matched by a discrepancy in quality. Since a number of years the powers to be have decided to promote some women to key positions. Nothing very exciting or over influential, just session chairs at conferences. Not because they were or are outstanding (they are not), but because of a sort of gender quota. I have the fortune, the honor and the pleasure of being a very good friend of one of those. We discussed the situation more than once. Obviously she was pleased with herself and enjoyed the power she thought she had, she also performed her functions efficiently and sensibly, but she regretted having been given the position because of gender. She could not refuse it, because of her position in the company where she worked. So all in all for her it was bad, at least that what she felt. The only one who thought to have gained were the powers to be, in terms of supposed image, at the expenses of a really nice person, to which a morsel was given in exchange of a little part of her integrity. Bad stuff. Some times it is better to be invisible.