Man Booker Prize shortlist announced - Page 3

charleski · 09-09-2010, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TGS

Or, to put it differently; men won just under two thirds of the last forty Booker Prizes - which is about the same gender split as this year's short-list.

In 2006 two-thirds of the shortlist was written by women and a woman won. Does that then prove the Booker is biased towards women? Of course not. The fact is there's no evidence of gender bias at all.

TGS · 09-09-2010, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by charleski

In 2006 two-thirds of the shortlist was written by women and a woman won. Does that then prove the Booker is biased towards women? Of course not. The fact is there's no evidence of gender bias at all.

Your point was that the gender break down of Booker winners contained no evidence of gender bias. I re-framed your claim to point out that it implied that about two thirds of winners were men. Does that not prove, just as a statistical matter, that the Booker is biased in favour of men?

SensualPoet · 09-09-2010, 09:12 PM

So, has anyone read two or more of the six short-listed? One or more?

GERGE · 09-10-2010, 02:22 AM

I read three books from the longlist but only Room made it into the shortlist.

murraypaul · 09-10-2010, 05:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TGS

Perhaps it is better, and perfectly possible, to think of it as positive action rather than sex discrimination.

It is the same thing.
Whether 'positive' or 'negative', discrimination is discrimination.

Sparrow · 09-10-2010, 05:25 AM

Most prizes (with the possible exception of the Turner) discriminate against the talentless - as a member of that group, I'm continually left feeling insulted and marginalised

.

HarryT · 09-10-2010, 05:26 AM

Ah yes, the Turner Prize. If Tracy whats-her-name can win it with her unmade bed, there's hope for us all

.

murraypaul · 09-10-2010, 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TGS

Your point was that the gender break down of Booker winners contained no evidence of gender bias. I re-framed your claim to point out that it implied that about two thirds of winners were men. Does that not prove, just as a statistical matter, that the Booker is biased in favour of men?

No, not unless the proportion of books being written that are worthy of winning are assumed to be 50:50 by men and women.
An unbiased process is one that treats everyone purely on merit. One that attempts to 'balance out' the results in an artificial way is biased.

HarryT · 09-10-2010, 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by murraypaul

No, not unless the proportion of books being written that are worthy of winning are assumed to be 50:50 by men and women.
An unbiased process is one that treats everyone purely on merit. One that attempts to 'balance out' the results in an artificial way is biased.

Perhaps, then, the judging panel should simply be given anonymous manuscripts, and not know who the author is? That's the way that peer reviewing in scientific journals is done, precisely to eliminate any element of personal bias that might arise through knowing the name of the author.

Sparrow · 09-10-2010, 05:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

Perhaps, then, the judging panel should simply be given anonymous manuscripts, and not know who the author is?

You can always tell if a novel's author is male or female.

HarryT · 09-10-2010, 05:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparrow

You can always tell if a novel's author is male or female.

Hmmm. Not sure if I'd agree with that. Soppy romances aren't always written by women, and hard SF not always by men!

Sparrow · 09-10-2010, 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

Hmmm. Not sure if I'd agree with that. Soppy romances aren't always written by women, and hard SF not always by men!

I may have a tad sweeping

; but can you think of a female SF author who could be mistaken for a male one?

HarryT · 09-10-2010, 05:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparrow

I may have a tad sweeping

; but can you think of a female SF author who could be mistaken for a male one?

The reason that C.J. Cherryh originally published books using only her initials was precisely that she didn't want to be "stigmatised" as "a woman writer". I'm not sure that there's anything about her extremely "hard" SF that shouts out that it was written by a woman.

GERGE · 09-10-2010, 06:02 AM

The fact is there are more male authors than female. 30:70 is normal.

TGS · 09-10-2010, 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GERGE

The fact is there are more male authors than female. 30:70 is normal.

And why are there more male authors than female authors I wonder?

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09-09-2010, 09:12 PM	#33
SensualPoet Wizard Posts: 2,302 Karma: 2607151 Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Toronto Device: Kobo Aura HD, Kindle Paperwhite, Asus ZenPad 3, Kobo Glo	So, has anyone read two or more of the six short-listed? One or more?

09-10-2010, 02:22 AM	#34
GERGE Guru Posts: 733 Karma: 5797160 Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Istanbul Device: Kobo Libra	I read three books from the longlist but only Room made it into the shortlist.

09-10-2010, 05:25 AM	#36
Sparrow Wizard Posts: 4,395 Karma: 1358132 Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: UK Device: Palm TX, CyBook Gen3	Most prizes (with the possible exception of the Turner) discriminate against the talentless - as a member of that group, I'm continually left feeling insulted and marginalised .

09-10-2010, 05:26 AM	#37
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,544 Karma: 93383099 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	Ah yes, the Turner Prize. If Tracy whats-her-name can win it with her unmade bed, there's hope for us all .

09-10-2010, 06:02 AM	#44
GERGE Guru Posts: 733 Karma: 5797160 Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Istanbul Device: Kobo Libra	The fact is there are more male authors than female. 30:70 is normal.