ebook piracy numbers

[Nathanael]

Originally Posted by ficbot

But if you are destroying the original book in order to scan it, you are not making a 'copy' since you'll still have only one version. You are making a format-shift

Glad you added the smiley; someone might've thought you were serious.

Originally Posted by ficbot

My view for regular books is, if the folks at Big Five want this to be a 'license' (with corresponding powers to them to limit or restrict my use) and not a 'sale' (where I own the book and can do as I please with it, including re-selling and loaning)....

(I thought that was the "Big Six"...)

Short version of the longer answer I just posted: all your rights wrt a pbook (reselling, loaning, burning) derive from the physical book itself; over the IP contents in that book you have never had any rights. Since an ebook is pure, distilled IP divorced from any physical medium, all the rights you've come to expect from pbooks are gone. You can no more (legally) loan out or give away a copy of an ebook without permission than you could make a photocopy of a pbook to give to a friend.

[ficbot]

And MY version of this is that if publishers want to sell me a pure, distilled IP divorced from the physical medium, then the price should be lower to compensate for the loss of rights I am experiencing as a result of this absence of physicality

I would have no problems treating an ebook as a disposable use-only-by-me, rights-restricted effective rental if that is the price they are charging. But if they are charging me the full price, it is unreasonable to not expect that I will want full rights. If they want to take away some rights I currently have, they need to take away some dollars from the sticker value too. I think eventually the law will come around to this point. I always pay for the content I use; I am not about depriving anyone of their fair due. But I am not stupid either, and I resent being price-gouged and punished for being one of the good ones here who really is trying to buy their stuff legitimately. They can only push me so far...

[Nathanael]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

Much like recording TV shows, which is also content you don't own that you're making a personal copy of for use later.

As I recall, the Ninth District findings of fact led the USSC to rule time-shifting legal at least in part because viewers were simply copying material they had been invited to view for free anyway:

[W]hen one considers the nature of a televised copyrighted audiovisual work, see 17 U.S.C. 107(2) (1982 ed.), and that time-shifting merely enables a viewer to see such a work which he had been invited to witness in its entirety free of charge, the fact [464 U.S. 417, 450] that the entire work is reproduced, see 107(3), does not have its ordinary effect of militating against a finding of fair use. SONY CORP. v. UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., 464 U.S. 417 (1984)

Myself, I see at least two points to ponder in this: first, the "nature of the copyright work" (this is the second of the four "fair use" tests set forth in 17 U.S.C. 107). If you want to try to convince a judge that the "nature" of a library book is legally indistinct from that of a "televised copyright audiovisual work", well, I don't think I'll be coming to that party.

Further, home recording is considered fair use because the viewer is simply copying material he was invited to freely view anyway. That's a very important point, and explains why it's legal for me to record, say, Transformers off HBO, but not to copy the Transformers DVD I brought home from the rental store (which, BTW, like the library book, is also available to me only for a limited time).

Second, the citation from 464 U.S. 417 clearly indicates that reproduction of the entirety of a copyright work normally militates against a finding of fair use. Use, in the case of time-shifting, was only found fair after consideration of the other tests.

[Nathanael]

Originally Posted by ficbot

if publishers want to sell me a pure, distilled IP divorced from the physical medium, then the price should be lower to compensate for the loss of rights I am experiencing as a result of this absence of physicality

If you want the physicalities of a pbook, then a pbook is what you should be buying. You can't buy an ebook, then complain you don't have a pbook.

Prices, as I'm sure you're aware, are set by market forces, not courts of law. They are the result of negotiations between consumers and producers. If you don't like the price, don't buy it.

Originally Posted by ficbot

But if they are charging me the full price, it is unreasonable to not expect that I will want full rights. If they want to take away some rights I currently have, they need to take away some dollars from the sticker value too. I think eventually the law will come around to this point.

What point? That legal rights are commoditizable? Value-adds tacked on to increase sticker price?

Nobody is taking away any rights you currently have since, vis-a-vis the IP content you never had any to begin with. If you want those rights, go buy a pbook. If you want an ebook with those same rights (and more), read PD.

Question: all those rights you want over your ebooks -- to what, specifically, do they attach, since not to the intellectual content? And by what mechanism?

[ficbot]

Prices are NOT set by 'market forces.' They are fixed by the publishers, who have no idea what they are doing. Even one of their own (the Random House head) admitted in an interview posted here that publishers have no experience in this area.

If it was truly set by 'market forces' then common sense would apply, and there would be no issues with things like loaning a book or transferring it to another device you might own. Even my mom, who is not a techie and knows little about computers, wondered about sharing books with the husband---she can buy a print book, leave it on the table, he can pick it up and read it, so she sees no reason ebooks should be different. She is not a criminal pirate, either. She is just a regular person using common sense.

I used to work in the magazine industry, and interned at one of the biggest magazines in the country. It was the number one 'most read' magazine, and its chief rival used to brag that it was the number one 'most purchased.' By this, they mean that the 'most read' winner gets their number one status from being in doctor's offices and multi-person households where people share. They brag about this sharing and use it as a selling point! And this is from the publishing 'industry!'

People are not stupid. They do not resent paying a fair price, but they do resent feeling hosed. Since the price-fixing began, I have been getting most of my books from indie sites and from the public library. They have lost sales over their behaviour. I don't really think that's what they wanted

[Nathanael]

Originally Posted by ficbot

People ... do not resent paying a fair price, but they do resent feeling hosed.

The law is what it is -- nor, for better or worse, are all your felt grievances likely to change it. For all that you might think of it as a "book" like any other, the fact remains there are significant differences between ebooks and pbooks, enough to hang a whole raft of legalities on, and if you're expecting to have the same legal rights over an ebook that you do over your pbooks, better go put another pot of coffee on; you've got a long wait.

[ficbot]

I am not expecting to have the same rights. I am expecting that if I have fewer rights, I am charged a 'fewer' price. That's ALL. And I don't think it is unreasonable.

[Nathanael]

Originally Posted by ficbot

I am not expecting to have the same rights. I am expecting that if I have fewer rights, I am charged a 'fewer' price. That's ALL. And I don't think it is unreasonable.

First, where are you shopping that you're paying the same as a pbook? Everywhere I look, ebooks are cheaper.

Second, you sound suspiciously like you're trying to commoditize your legal rights again. Not a path I'd want to go down, personally, but that's just me.

[Worldwalker]

Originally Posted by Nathanael

First, where are you shopping that you're paying the same as a pbook? Everywhere I look, ebooks are cheaper.

Maybe a little place called Amazon?

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93196

[DarthV]

I've grabbed a couple of those large collection torrents, but out of all the content I've imported into Calibre, I own 95% of it on paper. No way in hell that I'll pay for electronic versions of books I already own.

[Nathanael]

Originally Posted by Worldwalker

Maybe a little place called Amazon?

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93196

Oh, uh, wow. Kinda makes me feel sorry for anyone stuck buying from Amazon.

Hey -- now there's a wild, off-the-wall thought. Ya don't like Amazon's prices, ya don't shop at Amazon. Radical idea, I know. Forget I mentioned it.

(BTW, when I click on The Lovers link, I don't even see an electronic edition amongst the available formats. Probably georestricted.)

[Penforhire]

I don't think you can successfully argue that e-books are, today, cheaper than p-books. My experience matches the "e-books cost more" claim. Discount-to-discount I can find the same p-books cheaper.

[BVLarson]

I thought I would throw my two cents into this heated debate. From the point of view of an Indie Author, piracy is pretty much a good thing. It's like a demo version. If anyone is out there reading my stuff, I'm happy about it. I have to be known before I can possibly collect.

I can understand, however, irritation on the part of established authors. They work hard and people value their work. But many can escape without paying, and they will.

In summary, piracy is a small percentage of truly lost sales and benefits the small guys while hurting the big guys somewhat.
-BVL

[ficbot]

Originally Posted by Nathanael

Hey -- now there's a wild, off-the-wall thought. Ya don't like Amazon's prices, ya don't shop at Amazon. Radical idea, I know. Forget I mentioned it.

This implies an actual free market where people have real choices. Not so in the collusion world of agency prices, for many titles. Here is a wild though for YOU, Nathanael---don't assume that everyone is coming from the same place of privilege as you are and understand that some people (especially non-Americans) really are raising valid points---perhaps not on current legal finer points, but on how they perceive they are treated as customers, and why that treatment has led many to seek other options.

[Worldwalker]

Originally Posted by Nathanael

Oh, uh, wow. Kinda makes me feel sorry for anyone stuck buying from Amazon.

Hey -- now there's a wild, off-the-wall thought. Ya don't like Amazon's prices, ya don't shop at Amazon. Radical idea, I know. Forget I mentioned it.

You said ebook prices are cheaper than pbooks. I merely demonstrated that they aren't.

And in fact I don't shop at Amazon, at least not for ebooks.

However, due to the publishers' cartel and the price fixing, it doesn't matter; there is no competition, and nowhere I can buy those books cheaper. Not paying the cartel fixed prices means not buying that book.

To some extent the prices the cartel charged are irrelevant to me, because I don't buy DRM-restricted ebooks anyway. But the price-fixing is hurting the ebook market, and since as a reader I want to see a thriving market of affordable ebooks, that's a bad thing. Not to mention I'm rather fond of free markets and all; cartels, trusts, monopolies, and other structures that hinder the freedom of the market are also bad things.