About the backlist

[stonetools]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

I used a range of $2-5 dollars. I used $2 as the worst case senario for the publisher. Let's use a $2.99 price point at Amazon. $2 goes to the author/publisher, Amazon gets the $.99. Split the $2 50/50 and how many books sales does it take to pay out the costs to product the e-book? My estimate is 300-500 sales. Anything above that becomes pure profit. No marketing costs, no production costs, 1 cent a year (being generous) for storage.

But that would potential take demand away from your bestsellers (at $15-20 for the same cost structure...)

Sorry, I don't buy it. Or else those niche marketers would have died years ago...

You kind of ignored all the other considerations I pointed out, including trying to assess demand, renegotiation of contracts, etc. Its a lot more complex than your Underpants Gnomes theory of putting out the back-list.

(You put out the back-list book
?????????
Profit!)

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by leebase

A couple of "what this thread is about" -- so here's MY answer as the one who started it -- fully recognizing that threads take on a life of their own and need not confine themselves to the OP's intent.

I was trying to bring to light the notion that we, as readers, need to offer incentive to the publishers and authors to bring out their back list in ebook form. Arguing that back list titles should be priced to compete with used paperbacks (as some have, not necessarily in this thread) -- and complaints about price in general, all seem to ignore the publisher's pov.

As consumers, we all want the most for the least. In that, I'm like everybody else. I too would hesitate to pay new retail hardback price for an ebook of, say, Dune. Frankly, even paying the $9 or $10 "new paperback book" price would give me pause. But that's me thinking as a consumer.

Instead, we should consider what it is to be a publisher in the business of making money. If we want something bad enough, we need to offer rewards for it's creation. And if we never come to LIKE the situation, we can at least understand it better.

Lee

But Lee, the consumer is what all business are about. In any other business, making the consumer happy is their #1, #2 and #3 priority. The better they do the job of making the consumer happy, the richer they get. This is done by offering a combination of service, value, and price. The free market lets you mix and match, knowing it's impossible to offer the best of all three.

Nowhere, in the non-I.P. does any producer think that the consumer owes them anything. Certain not that the customer should inconvenience themself just for the benefit of the producer. if they did, they be out of business fast.

So why, in blue blazes, do you expect me to take the producer's needs to account, when it comes to I.P products? I'm the buyer, you want my money, offer me what I want, or I'll go someplace where they will offer me what I want.

What I get is right out of Little Caesar "I'll give you what I want. And you'll take it. See..."

[rogue_librarian]

Originally Posted by mr ploppy

For ebooks I can't see how they would ever go out of print except if the publisher voluntarily removed it from sale.

Standard publishing contracts usually establish "in print" for ebooks on the basis of income received by the author during any given accounting period(s), or number of books sold. Meaning, if the author does not receive $x during 1 or 2 accounting periods from print on demand and similar sources, then the book shall be deemed out of print, at least in that format. Details will vary from contract to contract.

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by stonetools

You kind of ignored all the other considerations I pointed out, including trying to assess demand, renegotiation of contracts, etc. Its a lot more complex than your Underpants Gnomes theory of putting out the back-list.

(You put out the back-list book
?????????
Profit!)

Hmm...A buck a book with virtually no overhead isn't enough...Gotta be $10...

Just how much marketing does the publisher do on backlist e-books? That would be an extra expense.

So you give me a breakdown of the publishers costs for e-books...


You see, bookscanners for P.G. (like me) know how long it takes to scan and proof a book. If you want a sample of it look for The Crystal Button (1890) here on this website. I scanned and proofed it completely. (Crutledge did the fancy e-book honors), total work time about 40 hours - including a triple proof of the text. Try to find a typo. Even at my profession day rate, that's under $2K. And it's a one time shot.

And there's almost nothing else. So what's the big costs involved? Explain to me...

[Greg Anos]

More importantly, what are the variable costs. I expect that a can of soda has more variable costs of production than an e-book does. (Unless you want to consider the author royalty as a variable cost...

[leebase]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

But Lee, the consumer is what all business are about. In any other business, making the consumer happy is their #1, #2 and #3 priority.

No it's not. The number one priority is to make a return on investment. Making the customers happy is _a_ priority as it relates to the real highest priority.

Business folks know that not everyone is worth having as a customer. There has to be some middle ground where the price a customer is willing to pay meets the producers willingness to engage in that business.

Everyone would be happy if Ford would give away it's cars for free. But Ford isn't about to do so.

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

The better they do the job of making the consumer happy, the richer they get. This is done by offering a combination of service, value, and price. The free market lets you mix and match, knowing it's impossible to offer the best of all three.

You can't make everyone happy. And you can't get richer catering to folks who place little value on your product and services.

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

So why, in blue blazes, do you expect me to take the producer's needs to account, when it comes to I.P products? I'm the buyer, you want my money, offer me what I want, or I'll go someplace where they will offer me what I want.

Any business is willing to let some folks go elsewhere. And I don't EXPECT you to do anything. I started this thread to offer folks a different perspective. In any business scenario there needs to be something for both parties. If that were not the case, we'd all demand everything be free. And yes, there are folks on this forum arguing that all books should be free.

Most of us understand that in life you get what you pay for and there is no truly free lunch.

Lee

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by leebase

No it's not. The number one priority is to make a return on investment. Making the customers happy is _a_ priority as it relates to the real highest priority.

Business folks know that not everyone is worth having as a customer. There has to be some middle ground where the price a customer is willing to pay meets the producers willingness to engage in that business.

Everyone would be happy if Ford would give away it's cars for free. But Ford isn't about to do so.



You can't make everyone happy. And you can't get richer catering to folks who place little value on your product and services.



Any business is willing to let some folks go elsewhere. And I don't EXPECT you to do anything. I started this thread to offer folks a different perspective. In any business scenario there needs to be something for both parties. If that were not the case, we'd all demand everything be free. And yes, there are folks on this forum arguing that all books should be free.

Most of us understand that in life you get what you pay for and there is no truly free lunch.

Lee

But you do expect me to do something. You expect me to sit on my hands and not pirate the particluar I.P. I want, while waiting that someday, the owners may deign to allow me to spend my money for the product I want. That is clearly an expectation. (Remember this thread is about the backlist, not the front or midlist.)

The more people you make happy with your product/service, the more customers you will get. This is not selling Fords for free. It's making Ford realize that you can buy a Hundai. And if you do, Ford has one less customer. One less opportunity to make a profit.

As to the can't get richer comment. Isn't that what Coca-Cola does every day? or Hersheys, Mars, or Frito-Lay? They know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that nobody has to buy their products; and offering what their customers want at a price they are willing to pay is critical to their very existences as a business.

Nobody has to read a book for entertainment...

[BearMountainBooks]

Lots of authors who own the erights are putting the books out themselves (I'd bet almost half of the ones out are out because the author either did the work or hired someone to do it.) There are MANY companies that provide this service to authors now--including scanning, proofing and uploading to the various venues.

If the author does the work or has it hired out, the price of the book doesn't have to be "full-price."

Many books that aren't out already are mired in arguments over who owns the rights. That's a big stalling part of the process.

Some authors are bringing out their books via their agent (Simon Green is one). Unfortunately, you add in agents AND costs for cover art, proofing and whatnot--and guess what? The ones I've seen from Green are at 9.99. Not much of a bargain there.
I passed.

Another favorite author is the author of the Jade Darcy series--but those books are also 9.99. I would have bought the one I hadn't read, but I think that author (whose name completely escapes me at the moment) went through a service/publisher to get them to ebook. 9.99 is more than I will pay for any book really. If a favorite author puts out a NEW book that I want at more than 7 or 8 bucks I wait for used. And that is a sad state of affairs because I am an author and I know they need to make a living. The problem is--that's just over my budget.

Now if the used market starts to slim down...I'm in real trouble...

[Greg Anos]

And the sell-through price seems to be $1-6. No-one makes much of anything at $1 -but it can be used to build up a fan base. $2.99-$6 seems to be the popular sell-trhough range. Beyond that, you start losing customers over price.

Put it on the Hamburger Scale (thank you, R.A.H. - Expanded Universe $6 at Baen's). People will pay the cost of a hamburger for an e-book. At a hamburger plus fries and a soda, they start dropping off.

In the DVD world, the sell through price was below $20. (Whiich was the price of two theater tickets.) Above and the sales started dropping rapidly for every dollar more above $20.

[crossi]

Romance readers are voracious buyers of backlist titles. Some used bookstores carry almost nothing else. A romance reader who likes an author will buy ALL their backlist and spend hours combing used books stores to find them My favorite authors I have been rebuying as they became available ($6.99 or less only). I've rebought hundreds of titles. So there is a market for backlist romances at least (science fiction and fantasy also). As for the cost of conversion that is a one time expense for many years of continued income. They don't need to make it all back in a couple months like the celebrity books that come and go so rapidly. Long term they could be a reliable source of yearly income.

[BearMountainBooks]

I agree that the sell-through price is about 1 to 6 dollars. The problem with the one dollar price is that you can't sell enough to make a profit in a reasonable time-frame.

I've tried it with an anthology--and it simply takes too long to make enough of a profit to help pay for the next book. There are some fixed costs even with backlist--cover art for example. It's difficult to put together a decent cover for under 200 dollars. It's difficult to hire a proof-reader for under 100 dollars. But let's say those are the costs for an individual (author) doing the work. We'll assume the author scanned the book herself rather than pay to have it scanned/converted.

If an author sells 300 copies of the backlist book at 99 cents, she still hasn't earned out on her costs (and I'm low-balling the costs.) So that means to make a profit, she has to sell about 1000 copies. Okay, doable. But so far, that author hasn't made any money--nor can she look forward and say, "Okay I've now made enough money to pay for putting the next book out."

Just to clear a few small fixed costs, an author has to sell over 1000 copies. If that is the ONLY book on backlist, you could say, "everything else is gravy." Uh-no. What about promoting the fact that the book is available??? My blog runs me 100 dollars or so a year. Being on forums is not free either--my internet costs me 35 to 40 bucks a month. So we're still not profitable. And for each backlist book, the author can expect to spend 300 dollars OR MORE. Want better cover work to sell better? It's gonna be closer to 500 dollars. Want to work on the next book so you hire someone to do formatting, uploading and scanning if necessary? That's going to be another 100 or so--and there are multiple sites to upload to and multiple formats. If the author isn't doing the conversions herself, the price for converting uploading runs anywhere from 35 (no checking for any errors) to hourly fees, to a "per change" fee. This can end up costing several hundred dollars, especially if you hire one of the more expensive options.

Some authors can sell 1000 copies a month--but not all of us can. So that means for ONE backlist book, it can take a long time to 'earn out' even with very small fixed costs if the author lists at 99 cents.

I know a few backlist authors who have gone with barebones covers--and guess what? That means less sales because they end up looking like an ill-informed indie author rather than a well-edited professional writer with a long-term career. I'm not knocking them either. It's just not as cheap to get a book up on Amazon/Sony as it might first appear. And the more of us that are doing it, the higher the costs go.

Apple is already resetting contracts so that if a person buys a kindle book through an apple device, Apple takes 30 percent. Since Amazon needs a cut too, guess where the money *has* to come from?

Artists who start to make a name for themselves raise their prices (rightfully so; that's the nature of the marketplace.) Editors/proofreaders with a good reputation? They're going to charge more.

It's not "free." And when you upload entirely for "free"--meaning you do all the work yourself, it means you aren't writing. So even there, there is a cost.

FWIW. Just a view from the street.

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by crossi

Romance readers are voracious buyers of backlist titles. Some used bookstores carry almost nothing else. A romance reader who likes an author will buy ALL their backlist and spend hours combing used books stores to find them My favorite authors I have been rebuying as they became available ($6.99 or less only). I've rebought hundreds of titles. So there is a market for backlist romances at least (science fiction and fantasy also). As for the cost of conversion that is a one time expense for many years of continued income. They don't need to make it all back in a couple months like the celebrity books that come and go so rapidly. Long term they could be a reliable source of yearly income.

The cost of conversion to several formats and uploading to several platforms is not that cheap. I do it myself, but just for one format, an author would be very lucky to find someone to do it for 60 dollars--oh you found an error? Well, to re-upload it is another 30. Yes, these are real prices from real people I know. And 60 dollars is on the low end with the author doing the format approval.

Yes, an author can continue to make some money for years--but again, conversion isn't the only cost. See my post above. Cover art is actually one of the higher costs and IMO it's a necessity in order to make your money back.

[elcreative]

As a matter of interest relating to selling, do you have any idea how many copies of The Crystal Button have actually been downloaded?

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

Hmm...A buck a book with virtually no overhead isn't enough...Gotta be $10...

Just how much marketing does the publisher do on backlist e-books? That would be an extra expense.

So you give me a breakdown of the publishers costs for e-books...


You see, bookscanners for P.G. (like me) know how long it takes to scan and proof a book. If you want a sample of it look for The Crystal Button (1890) here on this website. I scanned and proofed it completely. (Crutledge did the fancy e-book honors), total work time about 40 hours - including a triple proof of the text. Try to find a typo. Even at my profession day rate, that's under $2K. And it's a one time shot.

And there's almost nothing else. So what's the big costs involved? Explain to me...

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by AnemicOak

You'll always have a certain number of folks who think ebooks should cost a few bucks.



I personally have no problem paying a fair amount for backlist titles I want. The problem come in when we look at what I might think is fair and what the pubs think. I'd be perfectly happy paying say $4.99-$6.99. But $15 or more, nope.

Example: Older Star Wars books are being released in digital soon. I'd have happily picked up a few for $5-$7 for nostalgia's sake and maybe even gone as far as new MMPB pricing, but instead the first one is now listed for pre-order at $15...

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...SIN=B00513HWXO

I'm sure others will buy it and think the price just fine...

The problem is the agency model. The eBook in question is also being put out as a hardcover and thus the agency a$$holes get to charge hardcover pricing.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

What I get is right out of Little Caesar

Pizza! Pizza!