Epub is Not Universal So Stop the BS

[Anarel]

Found this, liked it. Kinda tired of hearing people go, yeah, the Kindle's nice, but because there's no EPUB, it's destined to failure.

http://mikecane.tumblr.com/post/9372...so-stop-the-bs

One of the top reasons I hear made for an epub preference is that it allows the customer to shop around. But why do that, now, thanks to Agency pricing? Save for Random House books (and indie books), most ebooks from major publishers are the same price no matter where you go. And if it's an ebook, chances are that Amazon will have it. So not much reason to shop around, huh?

Another reason that people say that they prefer epub is that have the ability to move to a different device and take their books with them should they want to in the future. But that remains to be seen... the only epub books that are cross-device compatible are Sony books to the Nook, and not vice versa. Ibooks can only be read on Apple devices. There's no guarantee that a newer device or new anything from Adobe will make that crossing possible, considering that while many vendors use Epub, most put their own flavor of DRM on top of it, negating any "open" claim to it's name.

What do you think?

[hrickh]

Originally Posted by Anarel

One of the top reasons I hear made for an epub preference is that it allows the customer to shop around. But why do that, now, thanks to Agency pricing? Save for Random House books (and indie books), most ebooks from major publishers are the same price no matter where you go. And if it's an ebook, chances are that Amazon will have it. So not much reason to shop around, huh?

I don't know about shopping around, but there are THOUSANDS of public domain books out there, most of which I've not read, that are available in epub format (among others). In these cases, price doesn't matter. Portability does, though. I think even moreso in our throwaway society, in which we feel the need to upgrade our equipment every year.

I look at epubs much the same way I look at mp3s. It's the format I use to convert my own stuff so that I can use it on all my devices.

R.
==

[SensualPoet]

A bit of rant from Mike Crane but tons of great points.

I grow tired of the "universal ePub" claim when the plain facts in front of our noses clearly demonstrate that is not so. I use ePub because that's what Kobo uses and that's what the public library uses. I use Kindle books from Amazon most of the other time.

So, I don't mind which but, as Mike Crane points out, the overall Amazon Kindle experience is seamless (he calls it "zero friction"). I can't imagine Amazon wanting to start confronting users on every purchase if they want .epub or .awz file for their current purchase. I'd bet most Kindle users don't even know the books are DRMed because they've never been outside the garden with the file.

[Anarel]

Originally Posted by SensualPoet

A bit of rant from Mike Crane but tons of great points.

I grow tired of the "universal ePub" claim when the plain facts in front of our noses clearly demonstrate that is not so. I use ePub because that's what Kobo uses and that's what the public library uses. I use Kindle books from Amazon most of the other time.

So, I don't mind which but, as Mike Crane points out, the overall Amazon Kindle experience is seamless (he calls it "zero friction"). I can't imagine Amazon wanting to start confronting users on every purchase if they want .epub or .awz file for their current purchase. I'd bet most Kindle users don't even know the books are DRMed because they've never been outside the garden with the file.

Yup, definitely ranty, but mostly correct and clear, I thought. It was refreshing to see someone talk about this.

[sabredog]

My only gripe about the Kindle is shop lock-in. If you want to buy outside Amazon, you need to remove DRM from a mobipocket ebook for it to be readable.

I prefer my ereaders ePUB capability which allows me to buy books pretty much anywhere really with the assurance they will be readable with out any conversion.

If you are into removing DRM and converting ebooks then perhaps the Kindle offers more choices than simply buying at Amazon all the time.

[corona]

Oops. My public library's e-book system, one of the mightiest on planet Earth, has ePubs and PDFs only. Sorry; I realize that Kindle owners may be less that sympathetic, but there are really a lot of us non-Kindle owners out here, and ePub is what works for us. Also, even if DRM can be applied to ePub, it's open-source. This is, for many of us, a good thing on many levels.

Oh, and I think the title of this thread is pretty inappropriate. There are quite a few points of view here, including supporters of several sorts of largely incompatible technologies. Calling the other party's perspective BS doesn't really seem to fit with the generally collegial atmosphere of this board.

[Anarel]

Originally Posted by sabredog

My only gripe about the Kindle is shop lock-in. If you want to buy outside Amazon, you need to remove DRM from a mobipocket ebook for it to be readable.

I prefer my ereaders ePUB capability which allows me to buy books pretty much anywhere really with the assurance they will be readable with out any conversion.

If you are into removing DRM and converting ebooks then perhaps the Kindle offers more choices than simply buying at Amazon all the time.

But the thing about that is, if they're drm'd... which would include MOST** in-copyright books, there's no guarentee you'll be able to do that. If someone has bought books from the Nook E-book store, and decides they want the new Sony reader coming out, those books won't work on the e-reader.

Being readable without conversion isn't going to work for everything. Because there's drm added on top of the epub.

[Anarel]

Originally Posted by corona

Oops. My public library's e-book system, one of the mightiest on planet Earth, has ePubs and PDFs only. Sorry; I realize that Kindle owners may be less that sympathetic, but there are really a lot of us non-Kindle owners out here, and ePub is what works for us. Also, even if DRM can be applied to ePub, it's open-source. This is, for many of us, a good thing on many levels.

I'm not saying epub is bad, I understand that it fulfills the ebook reading necessities for many people.

My problem is the second coming of jesus attitude towards epub and derision towards the Kindle for not adopting the "industry standard" when "open epub" really only applies to public domain books. It's not open if there's drm on top of it that all epub reading devices have a different version of.

[Crowl]

The dismissive way that he labels the third groups as Sony/Others is rather silly when the correct description would actually be all hardware, booksellers and libraries outside of north america than aren't amazon or apple, but I guess that wouldn't diminish that group quite enough for his argument.

The question about what happened to the firmware updates for sony to support the b&n drm is a good one, but given their general apathy and the fact that other companies support this feature it does seem quite likely that this is down to sony not doing anything yet rather than adobe.

The point about Kindle seeming to be the winner is hard to argue with, but the rest of the rant is pretty flawed, not to mention the obvious point that the current winner is kindle drm that amazon could just as easily wrap around epub if they decided that was their better option at some point and with their setup they wouldn't need to offer a choice of file format they would simply send the correct one to whatever kindle-compatible device their customer had.

[Anarel]

Originally Posted by Crowl

The dismissive way that he labels the third groups as Sony/Others is rather silly when the correct description would actually be all hardware, booksellers and libraries outside of north america than aren't amazon or apple, but I guess that wouldn't diminish that group quite enough for his argument.

The question about what happened to the firmware updates for sony to support the b&n drm is a good one, but given their general apathy and the fact that other companies support this feature it does seem quite likely that this is down to sony not doing anything yet rather than adobe.

The point about Kindle seeming to be the winner is hard to argue with, but the rest of the rant is pretty flawed, not to mention the obvious point that the current winner is kindle drm that amazon could just as easily wrap around epub if they decided that was their better option at some point and with their setup they wouldn't need to offer a choice of file format they would simply send the correct one to whatever kindle-compatible device their customer had.

They could easily add drm-free epub support, but for the most part, there's no reason to do that, because if a book is drm-free in the epub format, it's usually in mobi, or can be converted... it's generally not an in-copyright work this side of the legal line.

But if they added epub+drm... wouldn't they have the pay Adobe (or someone) licensing fees? And add credit card unlocking books/authorizing them to a device? What if you don't have the card you purchased books with anymore, or don't remember which? It would add another layer of difficulty to ebooks.

And what if something is off with a book? Not formatting or anything, but say it won't open. Do you go to Amazon? Will they send you to adobe to figure out what's going on?

It's adding a third party into things, and in addition to paying fees, troubleshooting is no longer so simple.

[Purple Lady]

Originally Posted by Anarel

But if they added epub+drm... wouldn't they have the pay Adobe (or someone) licensing fees? And add credit card unlocking books/authorizing them to a device? What if you don't have the card you purchased books with anymore, or don't remember which? It would add another layer of difficulty to ebooks.

Most ereaders with ADE DRM don't use credit card authorizations only - I know B&N does, but I don't know of any others that require it.

[starrigger]

Originally Posted by Anarel

if they're drm'd... which would include all in-copyright books.

Why do you say this? There are thousands of in-copyright books that are sold without DRM, including most of my own. The multiformat shop at Fictionwise is DRM-free; the Webscription list is DRM-free; Smashwords; I could go on. DRM and copyright have nothing to do with each other.

Epub and mobipocket formats are both good, and I use both. But increasingly, I use epub because it's easier to move among the devices I have. It's also easier to remove the DRM from, if one is so inclined, in order to facilitate moving among devices.

[Anarel]

Originally Posted by starrigger

Why do you say this? There are thousands of in-copyright books that are sold without DRM, including most of my own. The multiformat shop at Fictionwise is DRM-free; the Webscription list is DRM-free; Smashwords; I could go on. DRM and copyright have nothing to do with each other.

Right, I meant to fix that.... slipped my mind. Sorry ^.^;

Sounds like a rehash of the Beta vs VHS wars 30 years later. Or wax cylinders vs platter records or...

[bevdeforges]

Originally Posted by Anarel

One of the top reasons I hear made for an epub preference is that it allows the customer to shop around. But why do that, now, thanks to Agency pricing? Save for Random House books (and indie books), most ebooks from major publishers are the same price no matter where you go. And if it's an ebook, chances are that Amazon will have it. So not much reason to shop around, huh?

What do you think?

Maybe it's different if you're in the US, but I've found that even with Agency pricing, there is a wide range of pricing on books - especially, it seems, from the Agency publishers.

I'm a long-time "frequent buyer" at Amazon - three or four different Amazons, to be exact. But because of that, they have my real, physical address and so I can't access e-books at .co.uk even though they will now ship me most electronics and even some grocery items. (I can get health and beauty items there I am unable to find here in France.)

Even had the case recently (i.e. yesterday) where a book was mentioned here on MR that caught my interest. They mentioned that it was available at both Amazon and smashwords, yet I found it even cheaper at (wait for it) the Sony e-book store! And, yes, I snapped it up. The Amazon price was actually twice the Sony store price - though I suspect that's because of my location.

But I agree - I dislike those who insist that their way is the only way and have that holier than thou attitude about the whole thing. I went Sony, in large part because it reads epub, but also for a number of other reasons related mostly to location, location, location. I have friends and acquaintances in the US who have Kindles and just love them - for the convenience of being able to buy their books on the fly or for other reasons. Chacun son goût.