Geo-restrictions not legal?

alvico · 03-19-2010, 02:41 AM

Industry source says ebook geo-restrictions not legal – suggests we all rort at will

http://bookbee.com.au/index.php/2010...-rort-at-will/

Now why doesn't this surprise me?

colinsky · 03-19-2010, 03:13 AM

...I had to look it up (obviously not an Aussie here!).

Quote:

rort, n. 1. An act of fraud or sharp practice; a ‘lurk’.

http://203.166.81.53/and/index.php

Sweetpea · 03-19-2010, 03:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colinsky

...I had to look it up (obviously not an Aussie here!).

http://203.166.81.53/and/index.php

Thanks, saves me the trouble

Nice piece of work there! It's also how I think of it: if it's not available for me in my geograhic region, why wouldn't I be able to buy it from another geographic region? Which is why I simply ignore those regions in any way I can...

alvico · 03-19-2010, 03:43 AM

Oops... I didn't realise "rort" wasn't a universal word. I just know I saw a lot of it when I was studing commercial law.

Sorry.

lene1949 · 03-19-2010, 04:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alvico

Industry source says ebook geo-restrictions not legal – suggests we all rort at will

http://bookbee.com.au/index.php/2010...-rort-at-will/

Now why doesn't this surprise me?

English is my second language, and I have no idea what 'rort' means...

Ben Thornton · 03-19-2010, 04:53 AM

It seems to me that while his source was probably correct that Amazon's decision to impose restrictions was a business decision, not a legal requirement on them, it doesn't follow that I have a right to bypass that decision by fraud.

They ask what law one is breaking - it's payment of local taxes that would concern me. If I tell Amazon.com that I'm in the US, I don't pay VAT, and I suspect that it isn't legal to lie to a retailer so as to avoid VAT payment.

I hate geo restrictions, and wish that I could circumvent them with impunity, but I don't think I can.

AlexBell · 03-19-2010, 05:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alvico

Industry source says ebook geo-restrictions not legal – suggests we all rort at will

http://bookbee.com.au/index.php/2010...-rort-at-will/

Now why doesn't this surprise me?

Thanks for the link to the site; I've bookmarked it and will explore it later.

Regards, Alex

Stormchild · 03-19-2010, 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lene1949

English is my second language, and I have no idea what 'rort' means...

Don't worry, English is my first and I have no idea either.

sony_fox · 03-19-2010, 08:25 AM

How's this apply outside of Aus? anyone know?

sabredog · 03-19-2010, 08:37 AM

Well, well, well...

A very interesting article, thanks for the link!

Lemurion · 03-19-2010, 09:24 AM

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, and this is not intended as legal advice.

As I understand it, that situation is peculiar to Australia and doesn't apply to most geographic restrictions anyway.

Amazon.com or any other ebook site is legally allowed to sell to almost anyone anywhere in the world (Cuba and North Korea being notable exceptions). The general problem is contractual.

Amazon's sales contract basically states that they can only sell an ebook to people in territories where the publisher has the rights to distribute that book. They can still sell to those people in general, but they have signed a contract saying they won't sell these products to them. That's why you can still order a pbook from Amazon to Australia even when you can't buy the Kindle edition of the same book from the same publisher. The contracts allow one but not the other.

It's the contracts that are the killer here.

Ben Thornton · 03-19-2010, 09:32 AM

Is there not also a tax issue for Australia if you set up a false US address? Doesn't GST apply to ebooks?

sabredog · 03-19-2010, 09:59 AM

No, GST only is applied for items purchased domestically. I buy a lot of items online for my hobby as they are not available here readily in Australia. I have never been asked by the ATO to pay GST on them or been asked to pay customs for that matter either,

Ben Thornton · 03-19-2010, 10:10 AM

Fair enough - but from the UK, this is definitely an issue for VAT, because Amazon.com apply VAT to the ebooks that I buy. If you're in the US, obviously, this doesn't apply, but claiming to be there when your not is some form of tax evasion I suspect.

DawnFalcon · 03-19-2010, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben Thornton

It seems to me that while his source was probably correct that Amazon's decision to impose restrictions was a business decision, not a legal requirement on them, it doesn't follow that I have a right to bypass that decision by fraud.

Don't confuse the situation in the UK or USA with the one in Australia. Remember that things like modchips are legal under their law - and you cannot legally enforce regional restrictions on DVD's or games in Australia!

So it doesn't surprise me that it's quite likely entirely legal to bypass georestriction blocks, if you're Australian.

The tax issue is a separate question, but given Australian law, I doubt it's an issue. In the UK, yes, it is an issue but. The but is that VAT is only payable on "consignments over £18*". Customs duty doesn't kick in until £135.

(*there are a couple of exceptions, but not book-related)

03-19-2010, 02:41 AM	#1
alvico Addict Posts: 279 Karma: 400001 Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Victoria, Australia Device: iPod Touch	Geo-restrictions not legal? Industry source says ebook geo-restrictions not legal – suggests we all rort at will http://bookbee.com.au/index.php/2010...-rort-at-will/ Now why doesn't this surprise me?

03-19-2010, 04:53 AM	#6
Ben Thornton Guru Posts: 900 Karma: 779635 Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: UK Device: Kindle 3, iPad 2 (but not for e-books)	It seems to me that while his source was probably correct that Amazon's decision to impose restrictions was a business decision, not a legal requirement on them, it doesn't follow that I have a right to bypass that decision by fraud. They ask what law one is breaking - it's payment of local taxes that would concern me. If I tell Amazon.com that I'm in the US, I don't pay VAT, and I suspect that it isn't legal to lie to a retailer so as to avoid VAT payment. I hate geo restrictions, and wish that I could circumvent them with impunity, but I don't think I can. Last edited by Ben Thornton; 03-19-2010 at 05:31 AM.

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03-19-2010, 03:43 AM	#4
alvico Addict Posts: 279 Karma: 400001 Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Victoria, Australia Device: iPod Touch	Oops... I didn't realise "rort" wasn't a universal word. I just know I saw a lot of it when I was studing commercial law. Sorry.

03-19-2010, 08:25 AM	#9
sony_fox Zealot Posts: 109 Karma: 84 Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Manchester Device: Kobo Auroa H2O	How's this apply outside of Aus? anyone know?

03-19-2010, 08:37 AM	#10
sabredog Geographically Restricted Posts: 2,629 Karma: 14933353 Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Perth, Australia Device: Sony PRS-T3, Kindle Voyage, iPad Air2, Nexus7v2	Well, well, well... A very interesting article, thanks for the link!

03-19-2010, 09:24 AM	#11
Lemurion eReader Posts: 2,750 Karma: 4968470 Join Date: Aug 2007 Device: Note 5; PW3; Nook HD+; ChuWi Hi12; iPad	Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, and this is not intended as legal advice. As I understand it, that situation is peculiar to Australia and doesn't apply to most geographic restrictions anyway. Amazon.com or any other ebook site is legally allowed to sell to almost anyone anywhere in the world (Cuba and North Korea being notable exceptions). The general problem is contractual. Amazon's sales contract basically states that they can only sell an ebook to people in territories where the publisher has the rights to distribute that book. They can still sell to those people in general, but they have signed a contract saying they won't sell these products to them. That's why you can still order a pbook from Amazon to Australia even when you can't buy the Kindle edition of the same book from the same publisher. The contracts allow one but not the other. It's the contracts that are the killer here.

03-19-2010, 09:32 AM	#12
Ben Thornton Guru Posts: 900 Karma: 779635 Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: UK Device: Kindle 3, iPad 2 (but not for e-books)	Is there not also a tax issue for Australia if you set up a false US address? Doesn't GST apply to ebooks?

03-19-2010, 09:59 AM	#13
sabredog Geographically Restricted Posts: 2,629 Karma: 14933353 Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Perth, Australia Device: Sony PRS-T3, Kindle Voyage, iPad Air2, Nexus7v2	No, GST only is applied for items purchased domestically. I buy a lot of items online for my hobby as they are not available here readily in Australia. I have never been asked by the ATO to pay GST on them or been asked to pay customs for that matter either,

03-19-2010, 10:10 AM	#14
Ben Thornton Guru Posts: 900 Karma: 779635 Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: UK Device: Kindle 3, iPad 2 (but not for e-books)	Fair enough - but from the UK, this is definitely an issue for VAT, because Amazon.com apply VAT to the ebooks that I buy. If you're in the US, obviously, this doesn't apply, but claiming to be there when your not is some form of tax evasion I suspect.

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