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Old 12-23-2009, 12:59 AM   #1
brewt
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To embed, or....well......

Man, I hope I don't get in trouble for this.

Built me an epub out of Indesign with a dozen, not wait, 46 serifed fonts embedded in it. Poorly formatted, to boot

Embedding the fonts is the one thing Indesign does transparently (hyperlinks are troublesome, tho). Picked IDcs4 so it would encrypt the fonts - less trouble for me, you know.

The question was "Does it make a significant enough difference to warrant the trouble it takes?" The Bride didn't think so; keyword "trouble" bothered her.

I had thought I had seen ADE adding weight to the embedded fonts in other endeavors, and it looks like it still does. Garamond and Minion don't seem as lithe as I think they should: just fine, though, in Calibre and Epubreader/Firefox. A Reader doesn't have quite the weight added that ADE does, but it's still heavier (at least, to my eye). I still like Minion.

If it matters, the Dutch801 Rm BT is the default built-in font on Sony Readers.

-bjc

Revised 7/14/10 - latest embedded font test, mangled a bit harder than earlier editions, more fonts. I still have concerns that different reading systems handle the font embedding thing rather drastically differently. Does the embedment show up on a real nook, for example. And, has anyone started a css-implementation differences chart for the different devices?
-bjc
Attached Files
File Type: epub Embedded Font Test 2.epub (2.60 MB, 140 views)

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Old 12-23-2009, 07:02 AM   #2
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I would not embed fonts for the main text, which users may want to change (if the software allows it). I use embedded fonts only for titles, drop caps or decorative texts.
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Old 12-23-2009, 04:30 PM   #3
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I've been trying to bone up a bit on typography and book design of late.

One of the things "they" bring up is the idea that a book invokes a feeling, and that the design of the book can extend that feeling by design, font selection, layout, and so forth.

If the font selection, even the base body copy font choice, makes a positive (or negative) difference, then embedding would be worth the trouble.

Except, there are other tools used to realize a book that are limited or even absent in epubs, like kerning, h&j, precise placement control, it goes on.

So, if we can't have better h&j and kerning (etc), does the base font really make that big of a difference that's worth while? I can see the argument that the book is more than just words, that beauty in the expression of the words in an of itself makes a significant difference.

But until the rendering engines in the readers improve (lots), I agree with Jelby: font embedding only serves specialty needs (like weirdo characters), or to "slightly" alter the appearance of bits and pieces of the book.

The only other directional change I can think of is if we could call pre-built files for each different typesize change: on a reader, there would be 5 files for each chapter file (who knows how many for a Nook), one for each size, specifically built and called on; rather than having the system re-render, it just calls the next sized file.

Bleah. Sound like an inordinate amount of work. I'd have to get paid.

-bjc
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Old 12-25-2009, 01:10 AM   #4
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[Nevermind.)

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Old 12-25-2009, 09:09 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by frabjous View Post
[Nevermind.)
Right - that's why I had IdCS4 encrypt 'em. Makes for a good demo - sales pitch for the foundaries, if you like.

-bjc
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Old 12-26-2009, 05:15 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jellby View Post
I would not embed fonts for the main text, which users may want to change (if the software allows it). I use embedded fonts only for titles, drop caps or decorative texts.
I've been seeing a lot more ePubs coming with embedded fonts. One thing that does is make for darker text and easier reader. Plus you get true italics and true bold as well.
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Old 12-27-2009, 05:22 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by JSWolf View Post
I've been seeing a lot more ePubs coming with embedded fonts. One thing that does is make for darker text and easier reader. Plus you get true italics and true bold as well.
Embedded fonts can be better than the default ADE font, but they'll probably be worse than user-selected fonts (at least, the user won't like them better). I see embedded fonts for the main text as a workaround for an ADE shortcoming.
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Old 12-29-2009, 11:36 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jellby View Post
Embedded fonts can be better than the default ADE font, but they'll probably be worse than user-selected fonts (at least, the user won't like them better). I see embedded fonts for the main text as a workaround for an ADE shortcoming.
Well, the embedded fonts used are Charis SIL. It's a serif font. It definitely looks better then the default ADE fonts. It's not my favorite choice, but it's easily readable and I'm OK with it for sure.
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Old 01-29-2010, 12:19 AM   #9
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Can't leave well enough alone, can I.

Attached is Take 2 of the embedded font test. More serif fonts included (39 now). Created in Word and Indesign CS4, fonts encrypted via Adobe encryption scheme. Reprocessed to add meta data in Calibre.

If you see one you like, please go out an BUY IT. Don't Swipe It.

Embedded fonts show up in ADE,Sony Desktop Reader, Sony Reader, Calibre.

Embedded fonts do not show up in Firefox, Barnes & Noble Desktop.

File would not open in Stanza PC, Opera.

Anybody got something else to try it on?

-bjc

Last edited by brewt; 03-01-2010 at 09:24 PM.
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Old 01-30-2010, 11:44 AM   #10
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Brewt: Wondering if you've opened/saved this file in Sigil. I've been having problems retaining embedded fonts after opening and saving with that (otherwise excellent—for a free, not-even-beta program). I'm not sure what the problem is. Could it be the way Sigil renames the fonts? Either way, I'd love, at the last stage, to "restore" this embedding.
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Old 01-30-2010, 12:25 PM   #11
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When I open the file in Sigil, I'm not seeing the embeddedness of the fonts that I see in ADE. Attached are some pix.

Also: I've got some fonts indesign says I can't embed, so even if your method worked, there are instances that it couldn't. Obvious example attached.

Funny, these all show up ok in sigil but not ade/sony.

As much fun as indesign can be, I find that it causes (me, at least) more problems than it solves.

-bjc
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	ade.jpg
Views:	207
Size:	725.5 KB
ID:	44573   Click image for larger version

Name:	sigil.jpg
Views:	233
Size:	1.08 MB
ID:	44574   Click image for larger version

Name:	obvious.jpg
Views:	221
Size:	32.4 KB
ID:	44575  

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Old 01-30-2010, 03:09 PM   #12
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thanks for these. Just one question, once you've saved the file in Sigil, do you still see the embedded fonts in ADE? That's where I'm running into trouble.
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Old 01-30-2010, 03:59 PM   #13
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Font embedding is still not supported in Sigil. It will be in a future release. Any current Sigil code that deals with retaining fonts should be considered experimental.

There are only so many hours in a day.

Last edited by Valloric; 01-30-2010 at 04:23 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 01-31-2010, 01:06 AM   #14
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'fraid not. What it looks to me like is that the original font calls are preserved in the css, but sigil is renaming the font files to font1.ttf, font2.ttf,, etc. Some of my original fonts are otfs, if that makes a difference, too.

xhtml:
Quote:
<p class="style1"><span>Bembo Std: The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog. Jackdaws love my big sphinx of quartz. 0123456789 (.,:;-*!?’) ABCDEFG HIJKLMNOP QRS TUV WXYZ abcdefg hijklmnop qrs tuv wxyz “” ‘’ &lt;&gt;[]{}</span></p>
css:
Quote:
color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
display: block;
font-family: "Bembo Std";
font-size: 1em;
font-style: normal;
font-weight: normal;
line-height: 1.2em;
margin-bottom: 0;
margin-left: 0;
margin-right: 0;
margin-top: 0;
text-align: justify;
text-indent: 0
}
content.opf call:
Quote:
<item id="font001.otf" href="fonts/font001.otf" media-type="application/x-font-opentype"/>
I can't see way to preserve the original connection - rebuilding it to match the original would be a bothersome chore at best, assuming the encryption scheme survived. I haven't tried it yet, but my off-the-cuff guess is no, it wouldn't.

What are you trying to do in sigil to make this work? I know their meta tags are extensive; what else are you after?

-bjc

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Old 01-31-2010, 05:57 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by brewt View Post
Can't leave well enough alone, can I.

Attached is Take 2 of the embedded font test. More serif fonts included (39 now). Created in Word and Indesign CS4, fonts encrypted via Adobe encryption scheme. Reprocessed to add meta data in Calibre.

If you see one you like, please go out an BUY IT. Don't Swipe It.

Embedded fonts show up in ADE,Sony Desktop Reader, Sony Reader, Calibre.

Embedded fonts do not show up in Firefox, Barnes & Noble Desktop.

File would not open in Stanza PC, Opera.

Anybody got something else to try it on?

-bjc
I can try it with the txtr app for the iPod Touch.
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