How big is that e-book anyway?

Bob Russell · 08-31-2009, 07:37 PM

I'm prone to strange musings when I'm tired. Tonight, I noticed something - When reading an e-book, it's very hard to get an idea of how thick or long a book is. It's not hard with a paper book. You look at it, or feel the weight, maybe look at the last page, and then you peek at a few sample pages to see how much fits on each page. Then you just sort of "know" how long the book is, and what the page count means.

But when you read an e-book, how is one to know how long the book is? I confess that to get an idea of the length, I generally do some research and check out the number of pages of the print version. Or if I'm reading a lot, then my mind remembers that magic paper-to-device page conversion factor at my favorite font size. That gives me a general feel for the length of the corresponding "real" book in paper form. Usually the e-book has a lot more pages than the paper version, especially if I'm reading on my Treo phone.

But if I don't have that magic conversion factor in my head, or if I am trying to determine how long an e-book is on a device that is new to me, it's kind of a mystery. How do I describe the book length to someone else? Some of the e-books I bought seemed like they were the equivalent of ~300 pages to me. But after looking it up, I find I bought e-books that were only about the equivalent of a bit over 100 pages. I knew it was a really quick read, but wow. I have to admit that I felt a little cheated at first, because I didn't realize how short they were when I was purchasing them. (Actually, I would have bought them anyway - they were really good!)

Now, even if paper books go away (not likely for a long, long time), there will probably still be a place for an typeset version in some format like pdf. I've never heard anyone conjecture that, but it seems self-evident to me that typesetting properly done adds greatly to the reading experience. The nicely formatted e-books available at MobileRead are a good demonstration of the value of presentation. So not everything is likely to be entirely flowable, re-sizeable text.

But... what if there really is no fixed text size? (After all, who is really going to bother nicely typesetting the average fiction e-book in the future?) Then how will we describe e-book length?

I can't think of any other alternative besides word count, and that seems to incredibly unsatisfying and aesthetically crude. It reminds me too much of school days, I suppose. But if there is no fixed standard page number to compare against, what else can we do? I suppose we could agree on a certain common text size and page layout in electronic form and make that the "agreed upon" number of pages in a book. But that seems silly to me also.

This may ruffle some feathers, or you may have some thoughts that make me realize how silly I am, but as wonderful as e-books are, I think that the corresponding paper books are awfully nice, even for simple things like setting a standard for the number of pages.

Archergal5219 · 08-31-2009, 08:11 PM

Hmm, doesn't bother me that much. If anything, I appreciate the lack of weight on books.

I started reading ebooks on a Palm device, and I've just watched the progress bar at the bottom of the screen. So I guess I'm happy with relative position rather than relative size. Same thing on my Sony, except it's page numbers rather than a progress bar.

DrMoze · 08-31-2009, 08:12 PM

Interesting musings.

I think a good measure would be word length, in k (thousands). For example, a novella (by SFWoA standards) is between 7.5k and 17.5k words, novella between 17.5k and 40k, and novel greater than 40k. And anything less than 1k is a scribble.

Progress might be referenced (a la Kindle) as a percentage. So, p50 would be halfway through, regardless of length of the prose. p1 would be the first page (or very close to it--maybe p0 is the title page?) and p100 would be the end. You lose some precision wrt p-books that have more than 100 pages (and gain some for shorter works) unless you add a decimal. Of course, this is a "relative" measure, as opposed to an "absolute" page number, but only relative measures like this will survive reformatting/reflowing.

More musings...

badgoodDeb · 08-31-2009, 08:17 PM

With some books, not knowing the size of the book can be an advantage! The Outlander series starts big and gets bigger with each book. Reading the whole series electronically, I never knew that. I just knew I *loved* the story, so I kept buying them. I did like to know the relative position in each book, but never got the feeling that I was reading the huge books that I was.

Then I looked at the print version on amazon and saw the page counts for each book ....

And I'm still so hooked on the storyline that I can't wait for the next book in a month or two!!

Teyrnon · 08-31-2009, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrMoze

Interesting musings.

I think a good measure would be word length, in k (thousands). For example, a novella (by SFWoA standards) is between 7.5k and 17.5k words, novella between 17.5k and 40k, and novel greater than 40k. And anything less than 1k is a scribble.

Are there any reader devices that report on word count? That's a feature I'd kind of like to have but neither of my devices seem to have such a function. I think the combination of a word count and a percentage bar would yield up more precision than page numbers in a pbook.

Idoine · 08-31-2009, 08:28 PM

If you look on Fictionwise site, for example, the Multiformat ebooks show number of words and approx. reading time.
Didn't look on other sites...

sminarovich · 08-31-2009, 08:30 PM

I used to think I had a little knowledge on kb and mb, but after a number of purchases I made which I tracked the pg numbers it turned out this isn't accurate method either. Some publishers do use novella, novels, plus novels using word counts but I'm not sure why they can't use a page number count at least to give an approximate size? I might think twice about a book with under 200 pages if it costs over $10, it would depend on the author and the type of book.

Xiaopanda · 08-31-2009, 08:33 PM

I use MOBI mostly, so I get a pretty random Idea of the size of the book anyhow.

I read a short stoy and the reader told me it was over 1000 ez reader pages long...turned out to be like 120pages.....

Best thing about ebook readers, you get to carry a library is a 1.2gram case, so for me, doesn't matter, I just open the next book and dive in.

Though, have to say I would like to know the reality of the size of the book, just for interest.....

Idoine · 08-31-2009, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sminarovich

I used to think I had a little knowledge on kb and mb, but after a number of purchases I made which I tracked the pg numbers it turned out this isn't accurate method either. Some publishers do use novella, novels, plus novels using word counts but I'm not sure why they can't use a page number count at least to give an approximate size? I might think twice about a book with under 200 pages if it costs over $10, it would depend on the author and the type of book.

As the size of the font will change the number of the pages, it's impossible to do, unless a dynamic recalculation (as with Microsoft Reader).
Now you can always search for the paperback version on the net, and see the number of pages...

Steven Lyle Jordan · 08-31-2009, 08:58 PM

I've found hat I never concern myself with the length of a book anymore. If anything, I might think about it in an abstract way, usually related to my impression that a story is being unfortunately drawn out, or rushing through to a quick finish. If I feel the story was properly told, not rushed or extended, however, I really don't care whether I just read 100 or 600 "pages" worth of text.

And yes, measuring by pages is inaccurate anyway... if you must measure, measure by word or character count. But, even as a writer, I don't really track the word counts in my own novels... I just write them, and when the story's finished, it's finished.

Jack Tingle · 08-31-2009, 09:04 PM

I took some time to correlate things once upon a time. From memory:

MS .lit
min. file size, about 120 kb
short work, about 200 kb
long novel, about 400 kb

mobi prc
min. file size, v. small
long novel, about 300 kb

rtf
long novel, about 500 kb

Hope that helps,
Jack Tingle

CleverClothe · 08-31-2009, 09:04 PM

Word count!

But then, I am a computer science guy. So I like to measure things directly.

Number of pages only tells you the size of the book, not length. It is like measuring the age of your child by the number of shoes you have bought them in their life.

Daithi · 08-31-2009, 09:05 PM

On the Kndle DX each book is represented with a series of dots under each title, so it is easy to compare the relative lengths of different books. When reading a specific title you can see the percent read, and each chapter is marked on the bottom of the screen to let you know how far you need to go to get to the next chapter.

I like the way this all works, but like Bob Russell, I too would like to know how this translates to a typical printed page. I realize that each book would be different based on font size and formatting, but we could probably approximate a book size based on word count and maybe an estimate of 300 words per page.

ahi · 08-31-2009, 09:19 PM

All my PDFs have a clear, definite, and readily discernible page numbers.

Short stories might be as little as 50 or a 100 pages, pulp novels tend to be around 200 - 300 pages. Longer/heavier/more involving fiction surpasses the 500 page count but probably not the 1000 page one.

Casanova's Memoirs are in the 4000 - 5000 page range. St. Thomas Aquinas' Summa Theologica is over 10,000 pages.

But I can empathise with how annoying it would be not to have such clear and consistent indication about a eBook's length/size.

- Ahi

FizzyWater · 08-31-2009, 09:21 PM

I prefer word count, too.

08-31-2009, 07:37 PM	#1
Bob Russell Recovering Gadget Addict Posts: 5,381 Karma: 676161 Join Date: May 2004 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Device: iPad	How big is that e-book anyway? I'm prone to strange musings when I'm tired. Tonight, I noticed something - When reading an e-book, it's very hard to get an idea of how thick or long a book is. It's not hard with a paper book. You look at it, or feel the weight, maybe look at the last page, and then you peek at a few sample pages to see how much fits on each page. Then you just sort of "know" how long the book is, and what the page count means. But when you read an e-book, how is one to know how long the book is? I confess that to get an idea of the length, I generally do some research and check out the number of pages of the print version. Or if I'm reading a lot, then my mind remembers that magic paper-to-device page conversion factor at my favorite font size. That gives me a general feel for the length of the corresponding "real" book in paper form. Usually the e-book has a lot more pages than the paper version, especially if I'm reading on my Treo phone. But if I don't have that magic conversion factor in my head, or if I am trying to determine how long an e-book is on a device that is new to me, it's kind of a mystery. How do I describe the book length to someone else? Some of the e-books I bought seemed like they were the equivalent of ~300 pages to me. But after looking it up, I find I bought e-books that were only about the equivalent of a bit over 100 pages. I knew it was a really quick read, but wow. I have to admit that I felt a little cheated at first, because I didn't realize how short they were when I was purchasing them. (Actually, I would have bought them anyway - they were really good!) Now, even if paper books go away (not likely for a long, long time), there will probably still be a place for an typeset version in some format like pdf. I've never heard anyone conjecture that, but it seems self-evident to me that typesetting properly done adds greatly to the reading experience. The nicely formatted e-books available at MobileRead are a good demonstration of the value of presentation. So not everything is likely to be entirely flowable, re-sizeable text. But... what if there really is no fixed text size? (After all, who is really going to bother nicely typesetting the average fiction e-book in the future?) Then how will we describe e-book length? I can't think of any other alternative besides word count, and that seems to incredibly unsatisfying and aesthetically crude. It reminds me too much of school days, I suppose. But if there is no fixed standard page number to compare against, what else can we do? I suppose we could agree on a certain common text size and page layout in electronic form and make that the "agreed upon" number of pages in a book. But that seems silly to me also. This may ruffle some feathers, or you may have some thoughts that make me realize how silly I am, but as wonderful as e-books are, I think that the corresponding paper books are awfully nice, even for simple things like setting a standard for the number of pages.

08-31-2009, 08:12 PM	#3
DrMoze Booknut Posts: 858 Karma: 2852 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: West Palm Beach, Florida! Device: Sony Reader 500/505/300/350, Nook Glowlight Plus (6")	Interesting musings. I think a good measure would be word length, in k (thousands). For example, a novella (by SFWoA standards) is between 7.5k and 17.5k words, novella between 17.5k and 40k, and novel greater than 40k. And anything less than 1k is a scribble. Progress might be referenced (a la Kindle) as a percentage. So, p50 would be halfway through, regardless of length of the prose. p1 would be the first page (or very close to it--maybe p0 is the title page?) and p100 would be the end. You lose some precision wrt p-books that have more than 100 pages (and gain some for shorter works) unless you add a decimal. Of course, this is a "relative" measure, as opposed to an "absolute" page number, but only relative measures like this will survive reformatting/reflowing. More musings... Last edited by DrMoze; 08-31-2009 at 08:59 PM.

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08-31-2009, 08:11 PM	#2
Archergal5219 Semi-retired semi-hero Posts: 64 Karma: 768 Join Date: Aug 2007 Device: Palm Zire71, EEE PC901, Sony PRS-505	Hmm, doesn't bother me that much. If anything, I appreciate the lack of weight on books. I started reading ebooks on a Palm device, and I've just watched the progress bar at the bottom of the screen. So I guess I'm happy with relative position rather than relative size. Same thing on my Sony, except it's page numbers rather than a progress bar.

08-31-2009, 08:17 PM	#4
badgoodDeb Grand Sorcerer Posts: 8,539 Karma: 64201357 Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Harrisburg outskirts Device: Palms, K1-4s, iPads, iPhones, KV, KO1	With some books, not knowing the size of the book can be an advantage! The Outlander series starts big and gets bigger with each book. Reading the whole series electronically, I never knew that. I just knew I loved the story, so I kept buying them. I did like to know the relative position in each book, but never got the feeling that I was reading the huge books that I was. Then I looked at the print version on amazon and saw the page counts for each book .... And I'm still so hooked on the storyline that I can't wait for the next book in a month or two!!

08-31-2009, 08:28 PM	#6
Idoine Which book will be next ? Posts: 661 Karma: 2172 Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: France Device: Cybook Gen3 1.5, Sony PRS 600 RC, Samsung Omnia...	If you look on Fictionwise site, for example, the Multiformat ebooks show number of words and approx. reading time. Didn't look on other sites...

08-31-2009, 08:30 PM	#7
sminarovich Connoisseur Posts: 95 Karma: 3133 Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Ontario, Canada Device: sony ereader 500 & 600	I used to think I had a little knowledge on kb and mb, but after a number of purchases I made which I tracked the pg numbers it turned out this isn't accurate method either. Some publishers do use novella, novels, plus novels using word counts but I'm not sure why they can't use a page number count at least to give an approximate size? I might think twice about a book with under 200 pages if it costs over $10, it would depend on the author and the type of book.

08-31-2009, 08:33 PM	#8
Xiaopanda Addict Posts: 230 Karma: 1290 Join Date: May 2009 Location: Brisbane Australia Device: Kindle Paperwhite	I use MOBI mostly, so I get a pretty random Idea of the size of the book anyhow. I read a short stoy and the reader told me it was over 1000 ez reader pages long...turned out to be like 120pages..... Best thing about ebook readers, you get to carry a library is a 1.2gram case, so for me, doesn't matter, I just open the next book and dive in. Though, have to say I would like to know the reality of the size of the book, just for interest.....

08-31-2009, 08:58 PM	#10
Steven Lyle Jordan Grand Sorcerer Posts: 8,478 Karma: 5171130 Join Date: Jan 2006 Device: none	I've found hat I never concern myself with the length of a book anymore. If anything, I might think about it in an abstract way, usually related to my impression that a story is being unfortunately drawn out, or rushing through to a quick finish. If I feel the story was properly told, not rushed or extended, however, I really don't care whether I just read 100 or 600 "pages" worth of text. And yes, measuring by pages is inaccurate anyway... if you must measure, measure by word or character count. But, even as a writer, I don't really track the word counts in my own novels... I just write them, and when the story's finished, it's finished.

08-31-2009, 09:04 PM	#11
Jack Tingle Punctuation Fetishist Posts: 557 Karma: 1070000 Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: The Bluest Commonwealth In East America Device: Kindle PW, Nexus 7 (2013), Galaxy S5 phone, Galaxy Tab 4 8.0	I took some time to correlate things once upon a time. From memory: MS .lit min. file size, about 120 kb short work, about 200 kb long novel, about 400 kb mobi prc min. file size, v. small long novel, about 300 kb rtf long novel, about 500 kb Hope that helps, Jack Tingle

08-31-2009, 09:04 PM	#12
CleverClothe Guru Posts: 618 Karma: 493394 Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Seattle, WA Device: iRex iLiad, Onyx Boox 60	Word count! But then, I am a computer science guy. So I like to measure things directly. Number of pages only tells you the size of the book, not length. It is like measuring the age of your child by the number of shoes you have bought them in their life.

08-31-2009, 09:05 PM	#13
Daithi Publishers are evil! Posts: 2,418 Karma: 36205264 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Rhode Island Device: Various Kindles	On the Kndle DX each book is represented with a series of dots under each title, so it is easy to compare the relative lengths of different books. When reading a specific title you can see the percent read, and each chapter is marked on the bottom of the screen to let you know how far you need to go to get to the next chapter. I like the way this all works, but like Bob Russell, I too would like to know how this translates to a typical printed page. I realize that each book would be different based on font size and formatting, but we could probably approximate a book size based on word count and maybe an estimate of 300 words per page.

08-31-2009, 09:19 PM	#14
ahi Wizard Posts: 1,790 Karma: 507333 Join Date: May 2009 Device: none	All my PDFs have a clear, definite, and readily discernible page numbers. Short stories might be as little as 50 or a 100 pages, pulp novels tend to be around 200 - 300 pages. Longer/heavier/more involving fiction surpasses the 500 page count but probably not the 1000 page one. Casanova's Memoirs are in the 4000 - 5000 page range. St. Thomas Aquinas' Summa Theologica is over 10,000 pages. But I can empathise with how annoying it would be not to have such clear and consistent indication about a eBook's length/size. - Ahi

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08-31-2009, 09:21 PM	#15
FizzyWater You kids get off my lawn! Posts: 4,220 Karma: 73492664 Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Columbus, Ohio Device: Oasis 2 and Libra H2O and half a dozen older models I can't let go of	I prefer word count, too.