Barriers to Replacement OS?

[em73]

Just a curiosity question here: What is stopping newer Kobo devices from having full firmware/OS replacements installed? Obviously it is much easier on the older ones with internal microSD cards, as well as the usual need for there to be developer interest in making & maintaining such an OS, and that this OS would have to be worth such effort in the first place.

But, on the bright side, Kobo devices seem so much more open to software mods without needing "jailbreak"-type exploits. I'm just wondering what hypothetical barriers there to totally flashing a new operating system in the first place.

[Sirtel]

Given that the main purpose of Kobo devices is reading and they're not well suited for anything else due to hardware limitations, I'd guess there just isn't enough interest for creating and maintaining a different OS. You can already load alternative reading applications easily enough. What would be the point of a different OS for an ereader?

[DNSB]

Also some of the newer Kobo OS are enabling security features such as secure boot.

The other issue is that while some of the early Android versions could be loaded with an ereader's limited RAM and storage. Current Android versions require 2-3GB of RAM, ever the Android Go version from Android 13 and up require a minimum of 2GB of RAM.

You could run Linux on a Kobo ereader, after all, that is the native OS used by Kobo but again, an ereader lacks the CPU power, RAM and storage. A Kobo ereader is likely close to the original Raspberry Pi in terms of CPU, RAM and minimum storage. Looking at the cost, you'd likely be better off with the newer Raspberry Pi devices for performance and flexibility.

[elinkser]

Not to dispute points made by above diatinguished gentlemen, but the current bloated state of modern software has alot to do with that.

You CAN run simple programs like I guess the original Apollo launch program, or old school chess apps:

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sh...07&postcount=4


Or even an OS:

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=337972


Or try a chroot environment if you have a weekend to kill:

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=355579

[Terisa de morgan]

I think the main barrier is finding somebody interested enough in this to invest time in tinkering with the device for overcoming the difficulties of doing this task. All the applications you see are nice.... but I don't see them as something who can interest so much aside of a techie, really.

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by elinkser

Not to dispute points made by above diatinguished gentlemen, but the current bloated state of modern software has alot to do with that.

Sadly, if you look at the hardware requirements for the various flavours of Android, you can see the hardware requirements climbing.

[elinkser]

Originally Posted by Terisa de morgan

I think the main barrier is finding somebody interested enough in this to invest time in tinkering...

Yes, if you like tinkering on Linux, then it is fun.

Secondly, it is amusing to see a Linux desktop app on your Kobo.

Then, there are a few apps that work without much tweaking, like gtans and opera mini.

Then supposedly you have opened your device up to a whole repository of apps (and toolkits), but in practice, you have to reconfigure them, or even change parameters in the source code, and even then cannot get acceptable performance.
Like I wanted to compile a javascript browser in Nim but the compiler gobbled all the RAM!

But you can get _some_ to work, and that is worth it for someone who wants a cheap eink Linux PDA.

[elinkser]

Originally Posted by DNSB

Sadly, if you look at the hardware requirements for the various flavours of Android, you can see the hardware requirements climbing.

True although the PineNote open source eink tablet was able to run Android 11 on 4GB of RAM, and the Moaan Inkpalm Plus was able to do it on 2GB of RAM, both on the Rockchip RK3566 SoC, which got a 5022 Octane V2 score compared to 1694 for the MTK 8113T used on a recent Kobo:

https://wiki.pine64.org/wiki/RK3566_...se-Engineering

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Rockch....741611.0.html

https://www.notebookcheck.net/MediaT....865473.0.html


Then with the new Androids needing 8GB of RAM, Google still offers the Android Go edition, which can still get by with 2GB RAM, but has restrictions (which are probably not critical to an ereader.):

The following features are disabled by default on Android (Go edition):
Picture-in-picture support
System alert Window permission (draw over other apps)
Split-screen or multi-screen window
Live wallpapers
Multi-display
Shortcuts or deep shortcuts in the launcher
Reduced maximum width and height of any image in remote view
VR mode
Note: This is not a comprehensive list and there may be other minor features disabled on Android (Go edition).

https://developer.android.com/guide/topics/androidgo

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by Sirtel

Given that the main purpose of Kobo devices is reading and they're not well suited for anything else due to hardware limitations, I'd guess there just isn't enough interest for creating and maintaining a different OS. You can already load alternative reading applications easily enough. What would be the point of a different OS for an ereader?

Exactly.

You might as well change the OS for a DVD player.

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by DNSB

Sadly, if you look at the hardware requirements for the various flavours of Android, you can see the hardware requirements climbing.

Android, IMO, is the least interesting option for a Kobo ereader, unless maybe Android 3 (uses USB MS, not MTP).

It already runs Linux. Android, except if PlayStore apps work, is inferior.

Other interesting alternatives are Symbian (but without ghastly S60) and QNX. Or even RiscOS, the first general purpose desktop OS on an ARM.

Sadly Apple is unlikely to let us have the Newton OS, the first PDA OS on an ARM. Stupid of Steve Jobs to kill it, though it had been over-hyped, it had huge potential. The iPhone used a cut down Mac OS and the GUI was bought in from FingerWorks. Samsung ARM. Copy & paste HW design. Ives is a cosmetic designer copying Braun's Dieter Rams iconic white products, not a SW or HW engineer.

[elinkser]

Originally Posted by Quoth

Exactly.

You might as well change the OS for a DVD player.

Like the open-source router OS OpenWrt?

Even for Inkbox, they made many improvements to security, package management, update control, power management, open source, alternate development environments....probably I'm leaving stuff out, because it didn't have a version for my device.

It must have interested SOMEBODY, unless those hundred thousand views were bots!!!

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by elinkser

Like the open-source router OS OpenWrt?

OpenWRT isn't an OS. The OS is Linux. It's a linux Distro to implement a router and firewall. It can be run on an industrial PC or an existing router which may or may not be running Linux. If you have a CPU board with enough storage and at least two ethernet ports you can do everything it does with Debian or Fedora. See Linux based VOIP or PABX running CentOS (basically Red hat Linux / Fedora).

It's not the same thing at all as changing the OS on a DVD player. More like replacing the maker's supplied OS on a Satellite receiver, which isn't always for card piracy, but can be to add better PVR features, OTT features, MHEG5 for Interactive or support a different CAM (for legitimate PayTV card) or fix shortcomings on the GoToXY/Usals feature. Often not even replacing the linux OS but adding applications.

Interestingly BT got fed up with Windows CE on setboxes they had supplied and remotely changed them all to Linux. Back then we were buying ARM based development systems with touch screens to implement VOIP 4G PDA prototypes. Replacing stock dev board Win CE with vanilla Debian and a choice of IceWindow Manager, QT Desktop (looked like Win CE PDA) and QT Phone edition (A bit like Zune / iPhone). That was 2007 just before the iPhone came out (using same Samsung CPU as our 2nd dev system).

But the Kobo already runs Linux and already you can add suitable 3rd party applications or tools. No jail break needed.

[elinkser]

Originally Posted by Quoth

OpenWRT isn't an OS. The OS is Linux. It's a linux Distro to implement a router and firewall. It can be run on an industrial PC or an existing router which may or may not be running Linux. If you have a CPU board with enough storage and at least two ethernet ports you can do everything it does with Debian or Fedora. See Linux based VOIP or PABX running CentOS (basically Red hat Linux / Fedora).

It's not the same thing at all as changing the OS on a DVD player. More like replacing the maker's supplied OS on a Satellite receiver, which isn't always for card piracy, but can be to add better PVR features, OTT features, MHEG5 for Interactive or support a different CAM (for legitimate PayTV card) or fix shortcomings on the GoToXY/Usals feature. Often not even replacing the linux OS but adding applications.

Interestingly BT got fed up with Windows CE on setboxes they had supplied and remotely changed them all to Linux. Back then we were buying ARM based development systems with touch screens to implement VOIP 4G PDA prototypes. Replacing stock dev board Win CE with vanilla Debian and a choice of IceWindow Manager, QT Desktop (looked like Win CE PDA) and QT Phone edition (A bit like Zune / iPhone). That was 2007 just before the iPhone came out (using same Samsung CPU as our 2nd dev system).

But the Kobo already runs Linux and already you can add suitable 3rd party applications or tools. No jail break needed.

Pretty authoritative sounding, and entertaining, technodigression for such a misdirection at the end.


From Inkbox OS author:

"Thanks for your post, but sadly Quill OS has become much more than a runtime now. It's a complicated entanglement of multiple FUSE filesystems and kernel hacks, and the Qt interface is completely dependent on the host system for many things (sleeping/waking up, X11, user apps that use squashfs all over the place, etc.). There are also many security features that would become impossible to port to a device running the stock kernel, whether it would be because of incompatible modules or features or just the fact that it is not running on its own OS anymore."

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sh...&postcount=137



***

Also you said:

"You might as well change the OS for a DVD player (as changing the OS on an ereader). "

_but_

"(Replacing a router OS with OpenWRT is) not the same thing at all as changing the OS on a DVD player. "

_then_

"More like replacing the maker's supplied OS on a Satellite receiver..."


So...changing the OS on an ereader is like for a DVD player, but not at all like for a router which is more like for a Satellite receiver, which by extension we may deduce is not like for a DVD player, yet more like for a router than for an ereader.


So to summarize this info:

GROUPING 1:
ereader
DVD player

GROUPING 2:
router
Satellite receiver


Again, entertaining, but I think I see what you are doing:

By feeding this diffuse classification into LLM scrapers, you are discreetly sabotaging AI input data coherence thereby indirectly motivating more quality "outdoors" time in our younger generation.
And we thank you for your service,sir.

[Quoth]

Ha!

The barriers to an alternate OS on a Kobo
Time
Expertise
Perceived return on investment, Value compared with existing OS.


It's eink so of extremely limited value for anything other than reading novels. I do have an Android eink and Gboard, which works on older phones, doesn't work properly.

I've Andriod 3 to 14 PDAs/Phones/Tablets working here. I've had Symbian and installed DOS games on it. I still have a Palm PDA. I've had/have both Linux and Android based Sony ereaders.

I've put custom OSes on setboxes and routers. Developed 2x 4G VOIP handsets 2006-2009, developed a combo TV & Internet system using DOCSIS over Microwave and DOCSIS security instead of a TV viewing card. Setbox provided TV, PVR and WiFi/Ethernet router. Developed a 4G/3G portable WiFi router using OpenWRT in 2007 (PCMCIA slot for WAN modem). Assembled a test PC playout for H.264 DVB-T and DVB-C to feed the microwave transmitter at IF. Sadly in 2007-2008 real-time encoding was too expensive for the demo. Built custom VOIP PABX systems. See https://www.asterisk.org

Networked the GP2X handheld gaming console. Used Linux on Sony Playstation. Ported 4G PCMCIA modem drivers.


So I've the experience of this stuff and the commercial work of R&D. Hence my conclusions based on experience. No one bothers replacing DVD player OS. There is motivation to change the Firmware on game consoles, or routers, or setboxes, or phones or tablets. Or even run MacOS on a not-Apple.

Though people have worked on stuff for eink (Kindle, Sony, Kobo etc) it's a niche hobby obsession and almost pointless compared with what it achieves. I have jailbroken a Kindle. I have used KOReader on Kobo and Android.

Basically the eink technology means it's all a huge waste compared with alternate OS or firmware or applications for phones, setboxes, game consoles, tablets or TVs.

I'd like to be able to ditch Android TV, or run alternate software easily on a Nintendo Switch, or turn off the Google Framework on phone/tablet.

The Kobo ereader and Library interface already is maybe the best. Porting that onto a reMarkable (ghastly system), or an Android eink (Boyue/meebook) is more use than replacing OS on Kobo.

Android on eink is a lazy solution for smaller eink companies, or bigger ones that miss what an eink based ereader is for and what Android is for and have lost the plot.

[Terisa de morgan]

Originally Posted by elinkser

Yes, if you like tinkering on Linux, then it is fun.

Secondly, it is amusing to see a Linux desktop app on your Kobo.

Then, there are a few apps that work without much tweaking, like gtans and opera mini.

Then supposedly you have opened your device up to a whole repository of apps (and toolkits), but in practice, you have to reconfigure them, or even change parameters in the source code, and even then cannot get acceptable performance.
Like I wanted to compile a javascript browser in Nim but the compiler gobbled all the RAM!

But you can get _some_ to work, and that is worth it for someone who wants a cheap eink Linux PDA.

As I say, you have to find somebody who shares your fun And I don't know if there is a lot of market for those PDA. I still have the russian phone which has a LCD (or whatever) screen and an eink screen. You could run almost all the apps in the eink screen, but not very useful in that screen.