Elipsa: reading pdfs

franklekens · 06-30-2021, 07:49 AM

Assuming some people will be curious about the Elipsa, here's my experience so far: it's rather heavy. The only thing I can compare it with is the Onyx, and that does feel a bit lighter. The sleepcover alone that comes with the Elipsa already feels as heavy as the Kobo Forma (without cover), and then you haven't put the Elipsa in yet. Fortunately, it's relatively easy to detach it from the sleepcover, and certainly easy to click it back in.

I miss the physical buttons of the Forma, although I admit it would hard to find a placement for those buttons that will please everyone, since it's so large: they'll always be out of reach of *somebody*'s thumb (depending on which way up you hold the device. Still. It does have a broad bezel on the side, or how do you call it -- which is perfect for a hand grip. But all that space for buttons, and nothing there. Just one rather difficult to press on/off button on the side.

Can't say anything about the stylus or drawing or writing on it. My artistic skills are nil and I just don't use that functionality.

Now as to reading pdfs. That's a bit of a disapointment, so far. And hardly any options or settings to steer this right, that I could find at least.

Some pdfs look okay from the get go. (E.g. one pdf of an actual print book downloaded from archive.org.)

But here's a pdf that doesn't look so fine. Granted, this might be one I could convert to epub, but that's not the point. Suppose it wasn't, this is how it looks like on the Onyx (to the left) versus the Kobo Elipsa:

Click here for image because inserting it in the message makes the image too big and the forum won't let me upload attachments.

Most of you can't read Dutch, but you'll see and probably agree the font is far too small to be legible on the Kobo. I've forgotten whether I had to tweak anything on the Onyx to get it to display the book the way it looks now, but I don't even think so. And it's zoomed to the optimum size to be legible *and* stil display one whole page per screen. Perfect.

So we zoom, you'd think. If I go to Zoom on the Kobo, I get this screen.
Click here for image because inserting it in the message makes the image too big and the forum won't let me upload attachments.

You'd think the plus button would increment the zoom in small steps. No, I pressed it looked like this:
Click here for image because inserting it in the message makes the image too big and the forum won't let me upload attachments.

Zoomed way too far in, not even fitting a single line on the screen anymore. So you have to zoom out, but for that you have to slide the slider manually. And the Ellipsa is faster than the Forma. (E.g. if you turn it upside down, the page immediately flips; on the Forma, it feels like I have to wait ages for it to do so). But not so fast that it still isn't an ereader: these operations are much more sluggish than on an average tablet.

So okay, as if by magic I find a sweet spot on the slider with which I can get the entire page of text to fill one screen and still be legible, like so. Fine.

But what happens if i go to the next page? Don't worry, it does keep the zoom level, you don't have to zoom all over again. But... the reader doesn't understand that all I want to read is the text, not the margins.
Click here for image because inserting it in the message makes the image too big and the forum won't let me upload attachments.

So it displays the page from the top left, and I have to drag the text back to the middle. And this for every page. And did I mention that this is rather sluggish?

So basically, as far as I can see, for reading some PDF's the Elipsa is pretty rubbish. And that's not an inherent limitation of PDF reading per se (much as I hate PDF and would simply like to blame that file format for everything that's wrong with the world). Because Onyx does seem to get that right. (There's plenty the Onyx doesn't get right for me, don't worry. But it does this thing.)

Or am I overlooking something or simply doing something wrong on the Elipsa? Let me know.

Otherwise, maybe a firmware update will improve this.

Uschiekid · 06-30-2021, 08:24 AM

In my experience reading PDFs on Kobo Aura One, the software updates go from handling PDFs in a sensible way that makes reading them a cinch and doing the behaviour you've described (but probably worse because my ereader would be slower). I don't understand why.

The firmwares where it works well, you use the little 4 arrow icon at the top, choose fit to width, and it will show the top part of the page zoomed to fill the screen. Tap once, it "turns" the page to show the bottom half (ie it appears similar to do what it would do for turning pages, but shows the bottom half instead of actually going on to the next page), tap a 2nd time, and you go to the top of the next page.

In other words, once you've set the zoom, you just tap → tap → tap and that equals advancing to the top of the page → bottom → top of next page, etc.

No panning, no slowness, no murkiness of ghosting caused by endless panning. It just works. The only things I could see some people disliking is 1) you have to tap to advance (swiping fulfils a different purpose and you end up looking at margins) and 2) when looking at the bottom half of the page, unless your PDF divides exactly into half the screen when the width fills the screen, there will be some text repeated, so you have to re-find your place. Mostly this isn't a big issue, because you can "turn the page" ie tap to advance to the bottom differently, according to where the paragraphs fall on that page. ie you can do it a bit early and just note what word the new paragraph starts at.

I avoided updating my Aura One because I was trying to read a long, stuffy PDF that worked perfectly a couple of firmwares ago and I'd already updated my Glo and found they'd "broken" how it worked again. But I accidentally let it update the other day, so I will set aside that PDF til the next time it works sensibly again and read epubs instead.

Anyway, as far as I'm concerned, the firmware is *capable* of making reading fixed layout PDFs easy, but it for some reason doesn't keep it that way from firmware to firmware. This is at least the 3rd time it was working in a way I could use it in a firmware, and it has been "broken" (IMO) for many more firmwares.

franklekens · 06-30-2021, 08:54 AM

Okay, I found that instead of using the slider I can also zoom by pinching, or whatever it's called, moving two fingertips, the way you do on a tablet.
But still on every page turn you have to drag the page to get the text where you want it. And that's just... well, a drag. So unnecessary.

(Damn pdf to hell. But sometimes you're stuck with it.)

wvdw · 06-30-2021, 10:04 AM

Have you tried landscape mode? That supposedly works way better.

isaacbh · 06-30-2021, 10:05 AM

Kobo will always play catch-up regarding pdfs, as it tries to replicate an experience already perfected by apps (on an Android tablet). And since android e-ink tablets use the exact same screen (there is only one supplier), I don't see the point of this device for the purpose of reading pdfs. Just pick a good app that can lock zoom and crop, like EbookDroid.

elipsajune · 06-30-2021, 10:49 AM

I can confirm that PDF reading is subpar and buggy on the Elipsa. It is a shame because the device has so much potential. I'll write below a few problems I've encountered so far.

- Can't highlight text or add text notes. This is basic functionality that should work with PDFs as it works with epubs.
- Auto crop functionality, so that the issue described in the first post would be solved.
- Drawing dots with the stylus doesn't work reliably. If you just press and release the stylus on a PDF, most of the times it draws nothing but should draw a dot.

In general, the stylus requires quite a bit of pressure to be detected, so I often find choppy lines because pressure was too low to be detected while writing.

Uncle Robin · 06-30-2021, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elipsajune

- Can't highlight text or add text notes. This is basic functionality that should work with PDFs as it works with epubs.

Kobo has been very upfront in specifying that these functions are not available on DRM-protected PDFs or PDFs where annotation has been disabled - do the PDFs you've tried fit these categories perhaps?

elipsajune · 06-30-2021, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Robin

Kobo has been very upfront in specifying that these functions are not available on DRM-protected PDFs or PDFs where annotation has been disabled - do the PDFs you've tried fit these categories perhaps?

Hand-written notes work, but the standard text highlight or note typed with the keyboard are not possible.

Skydog · 06-30-2021, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elipsajune

Can't highlight text or add text notes. This is basic functionality that should work with PDFs as it works with epubs.

My experience with (non-DRM'd/protected) PDFs is quite different. With the stylus, highlighting, annotating and drawing is smooth and responsive, much like using pen on paper.

davidfor · 06-30-2021, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elipsajune

Hand-written notes work, but the standard text highlight or note typed with the keyboard are not possible.

Kobo has never supported highlighting and annotations in PDF. You can make a bookmark and add a note to that. I have been wondering if this would change with the firmware in the Elipsa, but, apparently not.

gmw · 07-01-2021, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Robin

Kobo has been very upfront in specifying that these functions are not available on DRM-protected PDFs or PDFs where annotation has been disabled - do the PDFs you've tried fit these categories perhaps?

I thought I'd quote this to emphasise it. PDFs have lots of security options available for producers and guessing what is a limitation in the software vs what is a limitation imposed during document production is not always easy. Check the PDF security properties, or even better, create your own PDF with no security and then compare results.

This presents difficulties, obviously, as some of your PDFs are bound to secured in ways that make them less than ideal for this sort of use.

@franklekens thanks for your review, this is one of the aspects I have been interesting in.

Pajamaman · 07-01-2021, 08:54 AM

If you are not using annotation and stylus, I would expect Koreader to be superior for reading pdf.

anacreon · 07-01-2021, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by franklekens

Some pdfs look okay from the get go. (E.g. one pdf of an actual print book downloaded from archive.org.)
But here's a pdf that doesn't look so fine. ...
So basically, as far as I can see, for reading some PDFs the Elipsa is pretty rubbish. And that's not an inherent limitation of PDF reading per se (much as I hate PDF and would simply like to blame that file format for everything that's wrong with the world). ...

Well, my experience with PDFs on Elipsa is mostly much more positive. But one thing to remember always, is GIGO - garbage in garbage out, and too many PDFs are outright garbage, particularly those massively digitalized by Google.
Also, before the advent of the 10.3" Kobo, the first thing I did with PDFs is cropping margins (I have Adobe Acrobat Pro) - which I did a bit too radically at the beginning which I now regret. The second is creating a TOC for that majority of PDFs which have none, or incomplete ones. And for decent otherwise PDFs we now have a perfectible but quite enjoyable way to read PDFs.
Thanks to the stylus, it is now easy to adjust the zoom level - which I found very difficult with my finger. I do hope geek1011 can patch this so we don't have to pan every new page.
And the fact I can now open dictionaries from a word is a big plus.
Kobo's way to deal with landscape reading is also a way around PDFs with ridiculously small pitch and/or pale fonts on grayish ground.

Pajamaman · 07-01-2021, 11:34 AM

It sounds like a great peice of kit. The software has flaws, as one would expect. I recall Sony had similar flaws, which were fixed by the community. Fortunately kobo comes rooted and is open. I am optimistic that there will be significant community development for this device. But yeah, the standard software needs work, and I suspect it will always be flawed. Hopefully it can be modified by the community, but if not, developers will create better tools. Though I appreciate this thread is primarily about the standard software.

Mercador · 07-01-2021, 05:44 PM

Question; does it flash once the page is loaded? I noticed that while reading full page pdf.

06-30-2021, 07:49 AM	#1
franklekens Addict Posts: 398 Karma: 3421956 Join Date: Sep 2009 Device: various Kobo's, Onyx Note2, Pocketbook 360, Kindle Keyboard	Elipsa: reading pdfs Assuming some people will be curious about the Elipsa, here's my experience so far: it's rather heavy. The only thing I can compare it with is the Onyx, and that does feel a bit lighter. The sleepcover alone that comes with the Elipsa already feels as heavy as the Kobo Forma (without cover), and then you haven't put the Elipsa in yet. Fortunately, it's relatively easy to detach it from the sleepcover, and certainly easy to click it back in. I miss the physical buttons of the Forma, although I admit it would hard to find a placement for those buttons that will please everyone, since it's so large: they'll always be out of reach of somebody's thumb (depending on which way up you hold the device. Still. It does have a broad bezel on the side, or how do you call it -- which is perfect for a hand grip. But all that space for buttons, and nothing there. Just one rather difficult to press on/off button on the side. Can't say anything about the stylus or drawing or writing on it. My artistic skills are nil and I just don't use that functionality. Now as to reading pdfs. That's a bit of a disapointment, so far. And hardly any options or settings to steer this right, that I could find at least. Some pdfs look okay from the get go. (E.g. one pdf of an actual print book downloaded from archive.org.) But here's a pdf that doesn't look so fine. Granted, this might be one I could convert to epub, but that's not the point. Suppose it wasn't, this is how it looks like on the Onyx (to the left) versus the Kobo Elipsa: Click here for image because inserting it in the message makes the image too big and the forum won't let me upload attachments. Most of you can't read Dutch, but you'll see and probably agree the font is far too small to be legible on the Kobo. I've forgotten whether I had to tweak anything on the Onyx to get it to display the book the way it looks now, but I don't even think so. And it's zoomed to the optimum size to be legible and stil display one whole page per screen. Perfect. So we zoom, you'd think. If I go to Zoom on the Kobo, I get this screen. Click here for image because inserting it in the message makes the image too big and the forum won't let me upload attachments. You'd think the plus button would increment the zoom in small steps. No, I pressed it looked like this: Click here for image because inserting it in the message makes the image too big and the forum won't let me upload attachments. Zoomed way too far in, not even fitting a single line on the screen anymore. So you have to zoom out, but for that you have to slide the slider manually. And the Ellipsa is faster than the Forma. (E.g. if you turn it upside down, the page immediately flips; on the Forma, it feels like I have to wait ages for it to do so). But not so fast that it still isn't an ereader: these operations are much more sluggish than on an average tablet. So okay, as if by magic I find a sweet spot on the slider with which I can get the entire page of text to fill one screen and still be legible, like so. Fine. But what happens if i go to the next page? Don't worry, it does keep the zoom level, you don't have to zoom all over again. But... the reader doesn't understand that all I want to read is the text, not the margins. Click here for image because inserting it in the message makes the image too big and the forum won't let me upload attachments. So it displays the page from the top left, and I have to drag the text back to the middle. And this for every page. And did I mention that this is rather sluggish? So basically, as far as I can see, for reading some PDF's the Elipsa is pretty rubbish. And that's not an inherent limitation of PDF reading per se (much as I hate PDF and would simply like to blame that file format for everything that's wrong with the world). Because Onyx does seem to get that right. (There's plenty the Onyx doesn't get right for me, don't worry. But it does this thing.) Or am I overlooking something or simply doing something wrong on the Elipsa? Let me know. Otherwise, maybe a firmware update will improve this. Last edited by franklekens; 06-30-2021 at 08:02 AM.

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06-30-2021, 08:24 AM	#2
Uschiekid Tenrec Posts: 724 Karma: 1076988 Join Date: Oct 2012 Device: Kobo Aura One, Kobo Glo	In my experience reading PDFs on Kobo Aura One, the software updates go from handling PDFs in a sensible way that makes reading them a cinch and doing the behaviour you've described (but probably worse because my ereader would be slower). I don't understand why. The firmwares where it works well, you use the little 4 arrow icon at the top, choose fit to width, and it will show the top part of the page zoomed to fill the screen. Tap once, it "turns" the page to show the bottom half (ie it appears similar to do what it would do for turning pages, but shows the bottom half instead of actually going on to the next page), tap a 2nd time, and you go to the top of the next page. In other words, once you've set the zoom, you just tap → tap → tap and that equals advancing to the top of the page → bottom → top of next page, etc. No panning, no slowness, no murkiness of ghosting caused by endless panning. It just works. The only things I could see some people disliking is 1) you have to tap to advance (swiping fulfils a different purpose and you end up looking at margins) and 2) when looking at the bottom half of the page, unless your PDF divides exactly into half the screen when the width fills the screen, there will be some text repeated, so you have to re-find your place. Mostly this isn't a big issue, because you can "turn the page" ie tap to advance to the bottom differently, according to where the paragraphs fall on that page. ie you can do it a bit early and just note what word the new paragraph starts at. I avoided updating my Aura One because I was trying to read a long, stuffy PDF that worked perfectly a couple of firmwares ago and I'd already updated my Glo and found they'd "broken" how it worked again. But I accidentally let it update the other day, so I will set aside that PDF til the next time it works sensibly again and read epubs instead. Anyway, as far as I'm concerned, the firmware is capable of making reading fixed layout PDFs easy, but it for some reason doesn't keep it that way from firmware to firmware. This is at least the 3rd time it was working in a way I could use it in a firmware, and it has been "broken" (IMO) for many more firmwares.

06-30-2021, 08:54 AM	#3
franklekens Addict Posts: 398 Karma: 3421956 Join Date: Sep 2009 Device: various Kobo's, Onyx Note2, Pocketbook 360, Kindle Keyboard	Okay, I found that instead of using the slider I can also zoom by pinching, or whatever it's called, moving two fingertips, the way you do on a tablet. But still on every page turn you have to drag the page to get the text where you want it. And that's just... well, a drag. So unnecessary. (Damn pdf to hell. But sometimes you're stuck with it.)

06-30-2021, 10:04 AM	#4
wvdw Junior Member Posts: 3 Karma: 10 Join Date: Jun 2021 Device: Kobo Aura HD	Have you tried landscape mode? That supposedly works way better.

06-30-2021, 10:05 AM	#5
isaacbh Connoisseur Posts: 60 Karma: 201178 Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: Israel Device: Kobo Aura H20, Kobo Forma	Kobo will always play catch-up regarding pdfs, as it tries to replicate an experience already perfected by apps (on an Android tablet). And since android e-ink tablets use the exact same screen (there is only one supplier), I don't see the point of this device for the purpose of reading pdfs. Just pick a good app that can lock zoom and crop, like EbookDroid.

06-30-2021, 10:49 AM	#6
elipsajune Member Posts: 12 Karma: 10 Join Date: Jun 2021 Device: Kindle Paperwhite (1st gen), Kobo Elipsa	I can confirm that PDF reading is subpar and buggy on the Elipsa. It is a shame because the device has so much potential. I'll write below a few problems I've encountered so far. - Can't highlight text or add text notes. This is basic functionality that should work with PDFs as it works with epubs. - Auto crop functionality, so that the issue described in the first post would be solved. - Drawing dots with the stylus doesn't work reliably. If you just press and release the stylus on a PDF, most of the times it draws nothing but should draw a dot. In general, the stylus requires quite a bit of pressure to be detected, so I often find choppy lines because pressure was too low to be detected while writing.

07-01-2021, 08:54 AM	#12
Pajamaman Wizard Posts: 2,861 Karma: 10700629 Join Date: May 2016 Location: Canada Device: Onyx Nova	If you are not using annotation and stylus, I would expect Koreader to be superior for reading pdf.

07-01-2021, 11:34 AM	#14
Pajamaman Wizard Posts: 2,861 Karma: 10700629 Join Date: May 2016 Location: Canada Device: Onyx Nova	It sounds like a great peice of kit. The software has flaws, as one would expect. I recall Sony had similar flaws, which were fixed by the community. Fortunately kobo comes rooted and is open. I am optimistic that there will be significant community development for this device. But yeah, the standard software needs work, and I suspect it will always be flawed. Hopefully it can be modified by the community, but if not, developers will create better tools. Though I appreciate this thread is primarily about the standard software.

07-01-2021, 05:44 PM	#15
Mercador I'm not a number! Posts: 244 Karma: 11496 Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Quebec City Device: Kobo Elipsa	Question; does it flash once the page is loaded? I noticed that while reading full page pdf.

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