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Old 07-08-2020, 10:38 AM   #1
DNSB
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Books and Problematic Authors

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Originally Posted by shalym View Post
Well, since it's a close up of a page in a 39 year old book, then yes, I would expect it to be. Screenshots, on the other hand, are usually much clearer than the first image you posted.

I notice that you didn't address the fact that the book is clearly *not* showing anything like what you (or anyone else) posted in terms of what the "fi" ligature should look.

Shari
Shari, the image you posted was hard to look at which is why I quoted your it's fuzzy comment. As near as I can tell, you are right and a ligature is not being used for fi pair. OTOH, the i is moved under the f and it appears that the tittle on the i is colliding with the stroke of the f.

OTOH, do you feel comfortable posting the image of a page and reading books by an author accused by her children and others of child sexual abuse and rape? Who knew of and did not report her husband's sexual abuse of children?
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Old 07-08-2020, 10:50 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by DNSB View Post
Shari, the image you posted was hard to look at which is why I quoted your it's fuzzy comment. As near as I can tell, you are right and a ligature is not being used for fi pair. OTOH, the i is moved under the f and it appears that the tittle on the i is colliding with the stroke of the f.

OTOH, do you feel comfortable posting the image of a page and reading books by an author accused by her children and others of child sexual abuse and rape? Who knew of and did not report her husband's sexual abuse of children?
You know, I did think about that before I posted the page. I had a feeling that someone would bring it up.

My response is that I read stories that I like. If I had known about MZB's history before I bought the book, I may not have bought it, but since I bought it and read it almost 40 years ago (long before the allegations were made), the answer is yes...I absolutely feel comfortable. I refuse to feel guilt about enjoying a story...multiple stories, in fact.

I also read and enjoy most of the books and stories by Orson Scott Card, by the way...even though I utterly detest pretty much all of political and social positions. I enjoy books and stories by Harlan Ellison as well, even though, by all accounts, he was one of the biggest jerks ever...freely insulting and degrading anyone and everyone.

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Old 07-08-2020, 09:16 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by shalym View Post
You know, I did think about that before I posted the page. I had a feeling that someone would bring it up.

My response is that I read stories that I like. If I had known about MZB's history before I bought the book, I may not have bought it, but since I bought it and read it almost 40 years ago (long before the allegations were made), the answer is yes...I absolutely feel comfortable. I refuse to feel guilt about enjoying a story...multiple stories, in fact.
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Good for you standing up to a cancel culture shaming remark like that . The cancel culture is an intellectually dishonest way of trying to control other people.
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Old 07-08-2020, 09:24 PM   #4
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OTOH, do you feel comfortable posting the image of a page and reading books by an author accused by her children and others of child sexual abuse and rape? Who knew of and did not report her husband's sexual abuse of children?
While I share your disgust of peadophiles, I would ask if the author was taken court, charged and convicted? Has there been due process or are they just accusations?

Anyone can make accusations which is shy we have due process.

Even if completely true how does this affect the stories concerned? A good piece of work is a good piece of work.

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Old 07-08-2020, 09:42 PM   #5
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I don't want to drag the thread into taboo topics, so this will be my only response.

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While I share your disgust of peadophiles, I would ask if the author was taken court, charged and convicted? Has there been due process or are they just accusations?
There was due process, testimony in court and convictions.

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Even if completely true how does this affect the stories concerned? A good piece of work is a good piece of work.
Intellectually, I agree with you. And yet, I haven't read any Orson Scott Card yet. I don't look down on his fans. But there's enough good reading out there for me to want to give Card my money.
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Old 07-09-2020, 12:42 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Thasaidon View Post
While I share your disgust of peadophiles, I would ask if the author was taken court, charged and convicted? Has there been due process or are they just accusations?

Anyone can make accusations which is shy we have due process.

Even if completely true how does this affect the stories concerned? A good piece of work is a good piece of work.
Bit of background: One of my friends decided at age 14 to end her life. Another friend found her journal which she had left in their shared locker at school. After reading the first few pages, she talked to her parents and they called the RCMP. When the RCMP investigated, they found that her mother and father had used their children in their sex games since the children were very young (this part I found out from my parents 10 years later when they felt I was old enough to understand). So yes, I tend to take pedophiles and korephiles seriously.

Perhaps you should read the Wikipedia article on Marion Zimmer Bradley. I do remember seeing some of the interviews and the daughter and son both came across as reliable witnesses. Though since MZB was deceased at the time, there was no trial, no due process. OTOH, her husband who was the children's father was convicted of paederasty.

As for how this affects the stories concerned? I loved quite a few of her stories. The first story by her I remember reading was The Door Through Space though I bought the book for the other half which was A. Bertram Chandler's Rendezvous on a Lost World. When I read The Bloody Sun a few years later, I dug out as much of her other writing as I could. Even mail ordering several Ace doubles (they had these handy order forms in the middle in that age). Those purchases also introduced me to a couple of other authors (Keith Laumer for instance).

And this bring me to 55 years later when I find myself unable to separate the author from the person and my enjoyment of her books has turned into a feeling of nausea when I think about re-reading one.

Last edited by DNSB; 07-09-2020 at 12:50 AM.
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Old 07-09-2020, 12:53 AM   #7
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Quote:
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I don't want to drag the thread into taboo topics, so this will be my only response.

There was due process, testimony in court and convictions.
Thank you for that information. That changes my view of the situation.

I was not aware of this and perhaps I am a little too sensitive about the "cancel culture" that is so prevalent at the moment.
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Old 07-09-2020, 12:59 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DNSB View Post
Bit of background: One of my friends decided at age 14 to end her life. Another friend found her journal which she had left in their shared locker at school. After reading the first few pages, she talked to her parents and they called the RCMP. When the RCMP investigated, they found that her mother and father had used their children in their sex games since the children were very young (this part I found out from my parents 10 years later when they felt I was old enough to understand). So yes, I tend to take pedophiles and korephiles seriously.

Perhaps you should read the Wikipedia article on Marion Zimmer Bradley. I do remember seeing some of the interviews and the daughter and son both came across as reliable witnesses. Though since MZB was deceased at the time, there was no trial, no due process. OTOH, her husband who was the children's father was convicted of paederasty.

As for how this affects the stories concerned? I loved quite a few of her stories. The first story by her I remember reading was The Door Through Space though I bought the book for the other half which was A. Bertram Chandler's Rendezvous on a Lost World. When I read The Bloody Sun a few years later, I dug out as much of her other writing as I could. Even mail ordering several Ace doubles (they had these handy order forms in the middle in that age). Those purchases also introduced me to a couple of other authors (Keith Laumer for instance).

And this bring me to 55 years later when I find myself unable to separate the author from the person and my enjoyment of her books has turned into a feeling of nausea when I think about re-reading one.
I feel for you and understand your reaction. I will also read the Wikipedia article. Please see me posting in reply to "Shalym" as to why I made the postings.
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Old 07-09-2020, 06:17 AM   #9
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I don't want to drag the thread into taboo topics, so this will be my only response.

There was due process, testimony in court and convictions.

Intellectually, I agree with you. And yet, I haven't read any Orson Scott Card yet. I don't look down on his fans. But there's enough good reading out there for me to want to give Card my money.
H. P. Lovecraft was an out and out racist. So I would guess you won't be reading any of his books and anyone else's books based in Lovecraft's work.

Henry Ford was a major anti-Semite. He even took out full page newspaper ads against Jews.

The statue of Edward Colston was taken down in the protests because he was a slave trader. But he used the money he made to do a lot of good for Bristol.

There are a lot of bad people who do good work. So how do you separate the person from the work?
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Old 07-09-2020, 06:22 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZodWallop View Post
I don't want to drag the thread into taboo topics, so this will be my only response.

There was due process, testimony in court and convictions.

Intellectually, I agree with you. And yet, I haven't read any Orson Scott Card yet. I don't look down on his fans. But there's enough good reading out there for me to want to give Card my money.
Quote:
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Bit of background: One of my friends decided at age 14 to end her life. Another friend found her journal which she had left in their shared locker at school. After reading the first few pages, she talked to her parents and they called the RCMP. When the RCMP investigated, they found that her mother and father had used their children in their sex games since the children were very young (this part I found out from my parents 10 years later when they felt I was old enough to understand). So yes, I tend to take pedophiles and korephiles seriously.

Perhaps you should read the Wikipedia article on Marion Zimmer Bradley. I do remember seeing some of the interviews and the daughter and son both came across as reliable witnesses. Though since MZB was deceased at the time, there was no trial, no due process. OTOH, her husband who was the children's father was convicted of paederasty.

As for how this affects the stories concerned? I loved quite a few of her stories. The first story by her I remember reading was The Door Through Space though I bought the book for the other half which was A. Bertram Chandler's Rendezvous on a Lost World. When I read The Bloody Sun a few years later, I dug out as much of her other writing as I could. Even mail ordering several Ace doubles (they had these handy order forms in the middle in that age). Those purchases also introduced me to a couple of other authors (Keith Laumer for instance).

And this bring me to 55 years later when I find myself unable to separate the author from the person and my enjoyment of her books has turned into a feeling of nausea when I think about re-reading one.
I did read the article. While Walter Breen was convicted and sent to prison, MZB was not. She did admit that she was aware of what was going on, but never admitted to actually molesting anyone (she wasn't actually ever accused of molesting anyone during her lifetime) She died in 1999, and in 2014, her daughter accused her of molesting her and her brother all through their childhoods.

I'm not saying that she was blameless--she knew that her husband was sexually abusing a young boy and didn't tell anyone. I am saying that the statement that "There was due process, testimony in court and convictions." is only partly true...the only one who was tried and convicted was her ex-husband, Walter Breen.

DNSB, I'm sorry for what your friend went through, and I understand that you personally can't/won't read anything by a person who was associated with pedophilia in any way. If you want to judge me because I own books by MZB, you go for it.

Shari
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Old 07-09-2020, 10:53 AM   #11
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H. P. Lovecraft was an out and out racist. So I would guess you won't be reading any of his books and anyone else's books based in Lovecraft's work.

Henry Ford was a major anti-Semite. He even took out full page newspaper ads against Jews.

The statue of Edward Colston was taken down in the protests because he was a slave trader. But he used the money he made to do a lot of good for Bristol.

There are a lot of bad people who do good work. So how do you separate the person from the work?
Subtlety ain't your strong suit. I'm glad you read through my words carefully before replying and stretching things far beyond what I said.

For my response, I'm sticking to authors only as that is what seems relevant to this site.

As I mentioned, separating an artist from their work is important to do. You don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I chose Card as my example because he's still above ground and collecting royalties and I just don't want him to collect them from me. Quite honestly, if someone were to ask me about Card, his offensive viewpoints likely wouldn't even come up. I'm not leading the charge to get his books removed from libraries or any such a thing. People likely should read at least Ender's Game. But I know about him and I know how it makes me feel and I know I haven't read Ender's Game or anything else he's written.

As for Lovecraft, he is long dead and his works are in the public domain. So I'm not giving him money.

His work is important and shouldn't be forgotten (though his ideas and their influence matters more than the quality of the stories themselves. Even as a teenager I could recognize purple prose when it was that obvious).

You also have to understand things in the context of their time.

Lovecraft wasn't just racist. He was extremely racist even for his time. My preferred writer from then, Robert E. Howard also had elements in his stories. But they don't hold a candle to Lovecraft. Lovecraft's racism did often intrude on his stories, at points to where it is a distraction.

Honestly, in the end, everyone has to choose how they feel. I don't think books should be pulled from print because the author was a piece of crap.

I don't see the point of the J.K. Rowling flap myself. I would let my kid read Harry Potter.

But I also wouldn't debate someone who felt differently, unless they were pushing to have her work removed from access somehow.

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Old 07-09-2020, 10:56 AM   #12
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I'm not saying that she was blameless--she knew that her husband was sexually abusing a young boy and didn't tell anyone. I am saying that the statement that "There was due process, testimony in court and convictions." is only partly true...the only one who was tried and convicted was her ex-husband, Walter Breen.
I wasn't trying to spin the facts or misrepresent the story. Anyone can go Google the facts or read the Wikipedia article.

I was just trying to be vague enough not to pull the thread into P&R territory, which I feel is where it is headed. Too bad, because I do like the talk of ligatures.
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Old 07-09-2020, 11:37 AM   #13
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DNSB, I'm sorry for what your friend went through, and I understand that you personally can't/won't read anything by a person who was associated with pedophilia in any way. If you want to judge me because I own books by MZB, you go for it.
No judgment either way. I still have MZB books in my paperback/hardcover collection but I will—probably—never reread them.
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Old 07-09-2020, 11:50 AM   #14
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For my response, I'm sticking to authors only as that is what seems relevant to this site.
H. Rider Haggard's Allan Quatermain books are rather racist. I did read the first book and it was awful. The racism wasn't just because of when it was written. It was right in your face. The book was awful.
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Old 07-09-2020, 11:59 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by JSWolf View Post
H. Rider Haggard's Allan Quatermain books are rather racist. I did read the first book and it was awful. The racism wasn't just because of when it was written. It was right in your face. The book was awful.
I read King Solomon's Mines (Haggard's first novel and the first Allan Quatermain novel) and don't remember it that way.

Of course, the colonization of Africa and the whole 'great white hunter' stereotype is pretty gross now. But I remember being far less troubled by Haddard's attitudes than Lovecraft's.
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