Should Kindle Readers support Epubs?

Richwood · 03-14-2020, 10:02 PM

Amazon originally designed and sold the Kindle reader to encourage their sales of E Books I believe. So why do they not offer their E Books in both their current Amazon exclusive formats and E pub format as used by practically every other current reader, tablet and reading application in the world?

Their readers should also support the E pub format. I would think that this would further boost their electronic book sales, particularly overseas, as well as make customers happy. They could also make their E Book format public domain or freely licensable for other reader manufacturers, again potentially increasing their electronic book sales. The fact that we currently have two major E Book formats, mutually incompatible without conversion, seems to me to be kind of stupid. Amazon formats and readers practically dominate the USA market and the rest of the world reads Epubs. This might also increase Amazon reader sales overseas.

I realize for sophisticated readers there are various work arounds to convert files back and forth between formats but for the average person who just wants to use a reader for reading a book this may not be an option. Making readers that are compatible with both common formats seems to me to be a no brainer. I bet that Amazon could enable E pub compatibility with a simple firmware update.

jhowell · 03-14-2020, 11:16 PM

I believe that Amazon is happy with the benefits that they get from their proprietary Kindle ecosystem, where they control the entire customer experience. They are the Apple of the e-book world.

Other companies benefit from a more open approach. There is room in the market for both strategies.

rashkae · 03-14-2020, 11:53 PM

The problem with Epub is the 'standard' includes DRM poison pill. If Amazon advertised epub support, there is no way that the average consumer would understand why they are unable to load books from almost all of the stores selling 'epubs.'.. (And there's no way Amazon is going to license Adobe software to add to the Kindle.. that would be assinine.)

And as for the legit stores that sell drm free epubs? Most of them are perfectly happy providing mobi as an alternative, so no loss there either.

binaryhermit · 03-14-2020, 11:53 PM

Why would Amazon do that?

Quoth · 03-15-2020, 04:52 AM

Amazon has 90% of ebook market.
It's trivial to convert DRM free epub2 to AZW3/KF8 without losing anything.
To really claim to support epub they'd have to support Adobe DRM and all the competing ebook sellers (most apart from Smashwords do DRM), which would be a mad idea for them.

Maybe like MS having to offer Browser Choice they might be forced to include ADE. They certainly aren't going to do it willingly.

Install Calibre. Also consider buying a Kobo ereader and using "Download to PC" on Amazon and reading Kindle AZW books on the Kobo via Calibre and plug-ins.

No epub based dedicated ereader (apart from tablet /phone style devices that can use PlayStore or similar) is going to support Amazon DRM natively either. Certainly not the Kobo.

NullNix · 03-15-2020, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richwood

Amazon formats and readers practically dominate the USA market and the rest of the world reads Epubs.

The rest of your points have been addressed, but this one is fairly weird and seems untrue to me. Non-Kindle e-readers are almost unheard of in the UK, at least, *despite* WH Smith and Waterstones jumping on the Kobo bandwagon for a time and trying to sell them to more or less anyone who walked in the door. (Both have now given up.)

What about the rest of Europe? The rest of the world? Anyone know?

stumped · 03-15-2020, 10:49 AM

there are still some UK retailers of Kobo:
Argus, John Lewis ( who supplied mine), PC world. that's 3 big national chains.
Plus , according to Kobo, they are still sold by W H Smith
http://uk.kobobooks.com/pages/retail...aign=retailers

but yes, Kindles predominate for various reasons: e.g. Amazon have the largest/cheapest book store and the best end-to-end integration. Amazon spend a lot on Kindle adverts, I have never seen one for Kobo...

Quoth · 03-15-2020, 11:11 AM

Indeed I bought my two new Kobos from Argos Irelannd and one S/H from CEX. CEX regularly have Kindles, but I've only once seen a Sony (a T1) and a Kobo (old N905C, aka Kobo Touch).

Also I'm the only person I know among people I know in Ireland, UK, Germany, Switzerland and South Africa with a Kobo, Sony, Binatone or a Nook. All the loads of people I know that read ebooks that have eink, have a Kindle. Many read on phones or tablets.

I have no idea the proportion of Smashwords customers that have Kindles or ePub based devices, though some have Kobo, Nook and iThing as we do see some sales via those outlets.
Amazon sales are about 2/3rds for us, but generally they are believed to have 90% of the world market. We've seen "Amazon market place sales" in UK (includes Ireland), Canada, Italy, France, Germany, Australia and USA regions. We have only English titles and only one known non-native English speaking reader (a German). It's plausible the Italy, France and Germany sales are to native English speakers, though I know one German speaker that's read plenty of famous German books in English (not our customer sadly).

Amazon are now a well known name / brand in most countries and have I think 13 regional marketplaces, some serve more than one country that uses the same language.

pandaeye · 03-15-2020, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rashkae

The problem with Epub is the 'standard' includes DRM poison pill. If Amazon advertised epub support, there is no way that the average consumer would understand why they are unable to load books from almost all of the stores selling 'epubs.'.. (And there's no way Amazon is going to license Adobe software to add to the Kindle.. that would be assinine.)

And as for the legit stores that sell drm free epubs? Most of them are perfectly happy providing mobi as an alternative, so no loss there either.

I agree that this is a DRM issue rather than a file formatting issue. We want Epub because we want the books to be transferred between devices. But I just cannot imagine why amazon would deliver its product without any DRM after their ecosystem has been established so firmly after all these years.

And if DRM is still attached to an Epub, and every other device need some sort of additional authentication to open it, what's the point to change to another format?

tomsem · 03-16-2020, 05:09 PM

If they supported reading of (DRM free) ePub format, expectations would be that it would also be something that you could annotate and that it could be stored as Personal Doc with location/annotation syncing, and read with any of the Kindle apps.

Likewise there is no reason to support it as a format you could purchase from Amazon (presumably with DRM). It would just create a lot of confusion for the 99.44% of Kindle customers.

stumped · 03-17-2020, 02:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomsem

If they supported reading of (DRM free) ePub format, expectations would be that it would also be something that you could annotate and that it could be stored as Personal Doc with location/annotation syncing, and read with any of the Kindle apps.

...

but anyone who understands that sentence probably also knows how to format shift in calibre and how to send the .mobi file to kindle, so their needs are already covered

the reason amazon don't/won't do it is that 99& of their customers don't know what this means "If they supported reading of (DRM free) ePub format", don't want to be educated, and will blame/call amazon when books will not open

ps67 · 03-17-2020, 09:07 AM

Amazon will never support epub because they are the predominant competitor with its own ebook formats and they want to have the complete control of their products.

And about kfx: it is a kind of never ending work in progress, it is totally undocumented and they almost never talk about kfx but they talk about Enhanced Typesetting.

No one else could afford this behavior but they are the biggest fish in the sea and they can do it.

03-14-2020, 10:02 PM	#1
Richwood Astronomy Nut Posts: 519 Karma: 3700000 Join Date: Oct 2017 Location: Reno, NV Device: Kindle (All), Kobo (Multiple), Sony (most) and Nook Glowlight Plus	Should Kindle Readers support Epubs? Amazon originally designed and sold the Kindle reader to encourage their sales of E Books I believe. So why do they not offer their E Books in both their current Amazon exclusive formats and E pub format as used by practically every other current reader, tablet and reading application in the world? Their readers should also support the E pub format. I would think that this would further boost their electronic book sales, particularly overseas, as well as make customers happy. They could also make their E Book format public domain or freely licensable for other reader manufacturers, again potentially increasing their electronic book sales. The fact that we currently have two major E Book formats, mutually incompatible without conversion, seems to me to be kind of stupid. Amazon formats and readers practically dominate the USA market and the rest of the world reads Epubs. This might also increase Amazon reader sales overseas. I realize for sophisticated readers there are various work arounds to convert files back and forth between formats but for the average person who just wants to use a reader for reading a book this may not be an option. Making readers that are compatible with both common formats seems to me to be a no brainer. I bet that Amazon could enable E pub compatibility with a simple firmware update. Last edited by Richwood; 03-14-2020 at 10:05 PM.

03-15-2020, 11:11 AM	#8
Quoth Still reading Posts: 14,025 Karma: 105092227 Join Date: Jun 2017 Location: Ireland Device: All 4 Kinds: epub eink, Kindle, android eink, NxtPaper	Indeed I bought my two new Kobos from Argos Irelannd and one S/H from CEX. CEX regularly have Kindles, but I've only once seen a Sony (a T1) and a Kobo (old N905C, aka Kobo Touch). Also I'm the only person I know among people I know in Ireland, UK, Germany, Switzerland and South Africa with a Kobo, Sony, Binatone or a Nook. All the loads of people I know that read ebooks that have eink, have a Kindle. Many read on phones or tablets. I have no idea the proportion of Smashwords customers that have Kindles or ePub based devices, though some have Kobo, Nook and iThing as we do see some sales via those outlets. Amazon sales are about 2/3rds for us, but generally they are believed to have 90% of the world market. We've seen "Amazon market place sales" in UK (includes Ireland), Canada, Italy, France, Germany, Australia and USA regions. We have only English titles and only one known non-native English speaking reader (a German). It's plausible the Italy, France and Germany sales are to native English speakers, though I know one German speaker that's read plenty of famous German books in English (not our customer sadly). Amazon are now a well known name / brand in most countries and have I think 13 regional marketplaces, some serve more than one country that uses the same language. Last edited by Quoth; 03-15-2020 at 11:14 AM.

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03-14-2020, 11:16 PM	#2
jhowell Grand Sorcerer Posts: 7,071 Karma: 91577715 Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Charlottesville, VA Device: Kindles	I believe that Amazon is happy with the benefits that they get from their proprietary Kindle ecosystem, where they control the entire customer experience. They are the Apple of the e-book world. Other companies benefit from a more open approach. There is room in the market for both strategies.

03-14-2020, 11:53 PM	#3
rashkae Wizard Posts: 1,274 Karma: 5935030 Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Ontario, Canada Device: Kobo Aura HD	The problem with Epub is the 'standard' includes DRM poison pill. If Amazon advertised epub support, there is no way that the average consumer would understand why they are unable to load books from almost all of the stores selling 'epubs.'.. (And there's no way Amazon is going to license Adobe software to add to the Kindle.. that would be assinine.) And as for the legit stores that sell drm free epubs? Most of them are perfectly happy providing mobi as an alternative, so no loss there either.

03-14-2020, 11:53 PM	#4
binaryhermit Grand Sorcerer Posts: 5,732 Karma: 20469902 Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Lockport, IL Device: Kindle PW4, Kindle Paperwhite Signature Edition	Why would Amazon do that?

03-15-2020, 04:52 AM	#5
Quoth Still reading Posts: 14,025 Karma: 105092227 Join Date: Jun 2017 Location: Ireland Device: All 4 Kinds: epub eink, Kindle, android eink, NxtPaper	Amazon has 90% of ebook market. It's trivial to convert DRM free epub2 to AZW3/KF8 without losing anything. To really claim to support epub they'd have to support Adobe DRM and all the competing ebook sellers (most apart from Smashwords do DRM), which would be a mad idea for them. Maybe like MS having to offer Browser Choice they might be forced to include ADE. They certainly aren't going to do it willingly. Install Calibre. Also consider buying a Kobo ereader and using "Download to PC" on Amazon and reading Kindle AZW books on the Kobo via Calibre and plug-ins. No epub based dedicated ereader (apart from tablet /phone style devices that can use PlayStore or similar) is going to support Amazon DRM natively either. Certainly not the Kobo.

03-15-2020, 10:49 AM	#7
stumped Wizard Posts: 3,305 Karma: 10259306 Join Date: May 2016 Device: kobo forma, Kobo Libra, Huawei media Tab, fire HD10, PW3 HDX8.9,	there are still some UK retailers of Kobo: Argus, John Lewis ( who supplied mine), PC world. that's 3 big national chains. Plus , according to Kobo, they are still sold by W H Smith http://uk.kobobooks.com/pages/retail...aign=retailers but yes, Kindles predominate for various reasons: e.g. Amazon have the largest/cheapest book store and the best end-to-end integration. Amazon spend a lot on Kindle adverts, I have never seen one for Kobo...

03-16-2020, 05:09 PM	#10
tomsem Grand Sorcerer Posts: 6,939 Karma: 27060151 Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: USA Device: iPhone 15PM, Kindle Scribe, iPad mini 6, PocketBook InkPad Color 3	If they supported reading of (DRM free) ePub format, expectations would be that it would also be something that you could annotate and that it could be stored as Personal Doc with location/annotation syncing, and read with any of the Kindle apps. Likewise there is no reason to support it as a format you could purchase from Amazon (presumably with DRM). It would just create a lot of confusion for the 99.44% of Kindle customers.

03-17-2020, 09:07 AM	#12
ps67 Guru Posts: 755 Karma: 7025494 Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: Italy Device: Kindle Paperwhite, Kobo Elipsa, Pocketbook Inkpad 4, Inkpad Color	Amazon will never support epub because they are the predominant competitor with its own ebook formats and they want to have the complete control of their products. And about kfx: it is a kind of never ending work in progress, it is totally undocumented and they almost never talk about kfx but they talk about Enhanced Typesetting. No one else could afford this behavior but they are the biggest fish in the sea and they can do it.

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