auto-save?

[Notjohn]

Sigil and indeed many or most or perhaps all Windows programs do not have an auto-save feature. As a longtime WordStar user, I love the reassurance that comes with knowing the program will save my work every few minutes. Is there a reason this can't be or anyhow isn't replicated in Windows software? Could it be added to Sigil?

[KevinH]

Hi,
I really like the fact it does not autosave. I typically save just before a big operation such as merge or split and then decided I don't like the result, and simply throw what I have away and reload from the saved state.

So if we did decide to go with autosaving, it would have to have an incremented revsion number, soit did not overwrite the previously saved version.

[DiapDealer]

I'd pissed if I couldn't cancel a huge mistake just by closing Sigil.

[KevinH]

Hi Notjohn,

You do realize any new features would not be backported to the old Sigil 0.8.x tree right? Given your stated preference for staying with Sigil 0.8.7, I wasn't sure if you understood that. The source trees have have diverged too much, and the programming paradigm of returning references to null, is now illegal in many newer compilers because it is technically undefined behaviour. Also I have said this many times but Sigil 0.8.7 has some serious bugs and that Sigil 0.8.6 is recommended if you want to stick to the 0.8.x series. The only real difference between Sigil 0.8.6 and Sigil 0.8.7 other than the developer names and links, is a change that actually breaks things. Thus the rec for Sigil 0.8.6 over Sigil 0.8.7.

Take care,

KevinH

[BetterRed]

@Notjohn - have to disagree, auto-save has nothing to with Windows per-se, any more that it does with DOS or CP/M

Lot's of Windows programs have an auto-save feature. Two programs that I use in conjunction with Sigil are Word and Notepad++ - both have an autosave feature (both set to 2 minutes).

Kevin and DD have responded to - 'Could Sigil have an auto-save feature?'

But besides the issues they've raised there is also complication that an EPUB is 'merely' a bunch of files in a zip - what would be auto-saved, everything or just the file currently under edit.

BR

[eschwartz]

I don't really like the idea of autosaving.

Now, something like Word's AutoRecover feature I could hear having. (Auto-saving periodic copies in the cache, and detecting when those dirty copies are around and offering to recover them.)
But I suspect it isn't trivial to implement.


The only good reason for either feature is for the purpose of recovering from an unexpected crash. And autosaving itself is far, far, far, far, far too destructive for that purpose, IMHO.

[icallaci]

Another vote for no autosave, unless it can be made optional.

[BetterRed]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

. . . autosaving itself is far, far, far, far, far too destructive for that purpose, IMHO.

If you mean autosaving over the top of the original then I couldn't agree more - but is there any 'widely used' software that does that in this day and age. Notepad++ does what Word does without the Recovery leg. The auto-save files have recognisable names including a timestamp so Recovery 'relatively' easy.

By 'widely used' I'm referring to software that's used by more than just the person who wrote it and their besotted (browbeaten) family members

But to me the main issue with auto-saving a 'package' like an EPUB is what gets auto-saved. Should all the files be bundled up into 'new' package that could be profoundly invalid, or should it be just the components that changed since last save. Either way is fraught with difficulties. And IMO, on that basis alone, the developers would be justified into putting it into the 'too hard' basket.

BR

[DiapDealer]

The auto-save request always comes up from time-to-time. Neither John, nor Valloric before him, were interested in pursuing it, and I have to say I'm no different in that regard. Way too much work for too little gain, in my opinion. I'd rather work on on something I actually want to use.

[theducks]

A NO vote

Saves should be done when you are ready, not before.
And definitely, not before you have a chance to ABORT an "OMG, I did that!" event.

Saves, sometimes cause the text on the screen to re-position (pretty), possibly losing something you noticed needing attention, in the shuffle (it still needs attention, but it move around).

How hard is it to click a button or Ctrl-S? I just do that before a big change.

For those who have not noticed: There is an Asterisk that appears after the file name in the titlebar if there has been a change in the document.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by BetterRed

If you mean autosaving over the top of the original then I couldn't agree more - but is there any 'widely used' software that does that in this day and age. Notepad++ does what Word does without the Recovery leg. The auto-save files have recognisable names including a timestamp so Recovery 'relatively' easy.

By 'widely used' I'm referring to software that's used by more than just the person who wrote it and their besotted (browbeaten) family members

Well, I can't really think of many programs that do autosaving.
I didn't even know Notepad++ did it -- and I see that is via a plugin.


Saving lots and lots of timestamped autosave files would be a waste of space IMHO. You only need the last version.

But to me the main issue with auto-saving a 'package' like an EPUB is what gets auto-saved. Should all the files be bundled up into 'new' package that could be profoundly invalid, or should it be just the components that changed since last save. Either way is fraught with difficulties. And IMO, on that basis alone, the developers would be justified into putting it into the 'too hard' basket.

BR

Not sure what this is supposed to mean.

Presumably, the whole point is to save all changed components.
And saving the non-changed components is a no-op.

What difficulties do you see -- in either case?

[BetterRed]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Well, I can't really think of many programs that do autosaving.
I didn't even know Notepad++ did it -- and I see that is via a plugin.

Please name the plugin and version, I'd like to see what happens if I remove it! I thought the following had been part of the furniture since at least 2008 :-

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Saving lots and lots of timestamped autosave files would be a waste of space IMHO. You only need the last version.

Typical - I don't want it, ergo no-one should want it!

It takes some of us days to pare down a few pages of purple prose into a succinct sentence or two. Sometimes we like to get back to where we were this morning at about 10am - or where we were first thing yesterday morning.

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Not sure what this is supposed to mean.
Presumably, the whole point is to save all changed components.
And saving the non-changed components is a no-op.

What difficulties do you see -- in either case?

If the entire package is saved periodically and one or more components is in a state of 'unreadiness' - ie open tags, invalid links, out of synch manifest etc, such that the resultant so-called 'EPUB' would not pass muster with epubcheck, flightcrew or any other epub validation tool, then should it be saved as an EPUB.

What happens if the user locates the 'so-called EPUB' as of 10am this morning and asks Sigil to open it - will it, despite all those structural errors and if not, what then. I have no idea - but I wouldn't put any money on it - you're free do so if you so choose.

If only the components that have changed since the last save are saved, then comes the problem of reassembling a valid EPUB as of 10 o'clock this morning.

Let me make it clear - I am NOT advocating Sigil should have an auto-save feature, far from it. But not on the grounds that I don't want it therefore nor should anyone else - I'm not so arrogant as to think I matter that much.

I am advocating it not be done because I suspect its not easily done, otherwise it would most likely already be done, in Sigil, and similar software. The fact that its not, suggests to me its not as easy as all that.

That's enough from me.

BR

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by BetterRed

Please name the plugin and version, I'd like to see what happens if I remove it! I thought the following had been part of the furniture since at least 2008 :-

Attachment 144404

As a linux user, I haven't touched Notepad++ in quite some time (and only rarely then).

But I did a Google Search: "notepad++ autosave" and got a solid wall of links to the same plugin by Franco Stellari and not one mention about a builtin feature.

Typical - I don't want it, ergo no-one should want it!

It takes some of us days to pare down a few pages of purple prose into a succinct sentence or two. Sometimes we like to get back to where we were this morning at about 10am - or where we were first thing yesterday morning.

At the cost of filling up your hard drive with snapshots. Each copy of which, differs by a letter or two.

It seems, to me, to be a solution in search of a problem.

Now, I get virtually unlimited undo-redo in vim by virtue of activating ":set undofile" and that change history is step-by-step AND discreetly (and compactly) stored in one single undofile per edited file. Which by preference is stored in ~/.cache/vim/ where it won't bother me and can be easily purged if necessary.
And in the same place, a swap file with the saved state of the edited file, which is left behind if vim crashes or is killed, and can restore the file.

IMHO that approach is fundamentally superior to something that sounds more like an overanxious poor man's version control system, with no methodology beyond "dump piles of data on you and let you sort through them".
And certainly superior to "set it and forget it and have all your files overwritten without warning".

If the entire package is saved periodically and one or more components is in a state of 'unreadiness' - ie open tags, invalid links, out of synch manifest etc, such that the resultant so-called 'EPUB' would not pass muster with epubcheck, flightcrew or any other epub validation tool, then should it be saved as an EPUB.

Then that is the full document they painstakingly created, and presumably, that is what they want.
I think you are making this more difficult than it has to be.

What happens if the user locates the 'so-called EPUB' as of 10am this morning and asks Sigil to open it - will it, despite all those structural errors and if not, what then. I have no idea - but I wouldn't put any money on it - you're free do so if you so choose.

Yes, it will open it, the same way it was able to hold the internal state during editing.
I am fairly positive that it is impossible to save an EPUB with Sigil that cannot then be opened by Sigil -- but if it did then that would be a fairly significant bug and would be fixed, not hand-waved away as a feature.

If only the components that have changed since the last save are saved, then comes the problem of reassembling a valid EPUB as of 10 o'clock this morning.

I still don't understand what "only the components that have changed since the last save" is supposed to mean.
In order for Sigil to save the EPUB, it must recreate the ZIP with the contents of the changed "components" (read: files?) in addition to the unchanged files.
Also known as... the current state of all files!

Are you trying to suggest something to do with "recreating" vs. "updating" the ZIP?

Let me make it clear - I am NOT advocating Sigil should have an auto-save feature, far from it. But not on the grounds that I don't want it therefore nor should anyone else - I'm not so arrogant as to think I matter that much.

Well, good for you that you support other peoples' right to want auto-save.
I don't believe I am being arrogant when I express my personal opinion on the usefulness.

All it is, is an opinion. Anyone else is free to air their opinion as well.

I am advocating it not be done because I suspect its not easily done, otherwise it would most likely already be done, in Sigil, and similar software. The fact that its not, suggests to me its not as easy as all that.

Yes, that is another reason to think it won't happen.

[rubeus]

Originally Posted by KevinH

I really like the fact it does not autosave.

[BetterRed]

So 'you must be right because you Google'd for it' - whilst me who has been using NPP every day of the week since 2007-ish, must be wrong

I suspect the PI referenced was called Autosave or Autosave 2 - no idea what they do, because I don't use them. Never knew they existed until I just looked in the NPP Plugin Manager. Like some other 'widely used' software, NPP seems to be overburdened with overlapping, redundant PIs.

Right now I don't have any files open in NPP - number of snapshots in its auto-save folder - precisely ZERO. If I open a file now, and edit it progressively over the next four days, (including system shut downs each evening), then on Friday at noon, I would be be able to get back to where I was at 10pm this evening - assuming I never did a Save of the file between now and then.

I am not sure if that is what Notjohn has in mind - its nigh 30 years since I used Wordstar.

BR