Mobi or KF8?

indieauthor83 · 03-03-2015, 03:45 PM

There's more css options for the KF8, but from what I've read, these don't work on the earlier Kindle models. So what I'm wondering, is if I create a KF8 file, does this mean it won't work on the early Kindles, or will they just format differently, leaving the advanced CSS out?

All replies are much appreciated!

Thanks in advance

Zoe

HarryT · 03-03-2015, 03:51 PM

Firstly, the old Mobi7 format supports no CSS at all. Zero.

Kindles prior to the K3, and also the iPad Kindle app, don't support KF8. A KF8 file simply won't work at all on these devices.

If you're planning on selling a book through Amazon, you can generate a "dual" Mobi file which contains both Mobi7 and KF8 versions of the book, and Amazon's servers will automatically deliver the correct format to each device or app.

indieauthor83 · 03-03-2015, 04:01 PM

Hi Harry,

Thanks for your reply!

Can I ask, the 'dual mobi format' you've mentioned, how would I go about attaining this? Can this be done via conversion software, or would it need to be manually coded? If so, how would I go about doing it (would I use queries? And what would the code be that I would need to insert at the beginning of the html file, to reference that it's a 'dual file'?

Thanks

Zoe

eschwartz · 03-03-2015, 06:42 PM

Simply use kindlegen, as all KDP authors are supposed to. It will output a .mobi file containing the book formatted as both MOBI and AZW3.

If you like you can use media queries to style the book differently depending on format, e.g. use embedded fonts for dropcaps in KF8 and some sort of fallback for MOBI.

dwig · 03-03-2015, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

Kindles prior to the K3, and also the iPad Kindle app, don't support KF8. A KF8 file simply won't work at all on these devices. ...

...and in early K3 Kindles that for some reason haven't had their firmware updated will also fail to open KF8-only formatted ebooks.

indieauthor83 · 03-04-2015, 02:46 AM

Thanks for everyone's advice. I thought I'd double check to see if there are any miracles out there, that have just popped-up for word-spacing. Also I'd read about KF8 formats/vs mobi, so wondered if it's possible to have both.

I've followed a professional formatters advice and it looks really nice now!

Thanks for the advice it's appreciated.

Zoe

dgatwood · 03-06-2015, 01:03 AM

Basically, you create the source HTML or EPUB the usual way, but with a bunch of weird rules about which CSS selector combinations are supported (a bunch of stuff just doesn't work). Then you run kindlegen, test it with Kindle Previewer, swear at how wrong the output is, rinse, and repeat.

indieauthor83 · 03-06-2015, 04:23 AM

Thanks dgatwood,

I tried that last night. I opened an AZW3 version of my book and a mobi version, on the Kindle Fire 7HD. There's a big difference... the headers look HUGE on the fire HD, when in AZW3, but the mobi version looks fine/nice. The words look closer together on the AZW3, which gives it more of a book feel... BUT, there are lines throughout my whole book, in that every so often are stretched, so there is white spacing. It's distracting, and breaks the flow. Although I'm told there's nothing I can do about it

Other than hyphens, but I can't seem to get hyphens to turn on!! I've set them to 'auto' in the css, but nothing. Yet the headers hyphenate (against my instructions), so my Kindle obviously supports hyphenation.

This coding is so complex!

I think I'll post another thread on this, and see if anyone can help me to figure out how to turn hyphens on, and to decide whether to go with the AZW3 file or the mobi one. I can't decide!

Notjohn · 03-06-2015, 06:40 AM

Anyone who reads e-books is accustomed to the occasional short line or lines with extra white space. I don't mind them at all, and certainly not as much as I mind reading a book that's formatted ragged right.

As for the mobi vs azw3 question, that's not an issue. Your book when converted will contain both versions, and Amazon will deliver the appropriate one to each customer. Nobody will be reading the Mobi 7 version on a KF8 gadget, or vice versa.

indieauthor83 · 03-06-2015, 08:21 AM

Thanks NotJohn,

Well I've managed to make a html file, that when converted into mobi and AZW3 through Calibre, looks nice. The AZW3 looks the best by far! But... then I've gone and uploaded my HTML file into Kindle Gen, instead of Calibre, and the headers aren't rendering properly (actually, in the AZW3 file that Calibre converted, I had a similar problem, the heading sizes were HUGE compared to the mobi version - this I tested on my actual Kindle Fire 7HD). With the KindleGen program, the previewer is showing me the headers appearing left aligned (even thought my css settings specify them to be centered).

I'm guessing that headers have defaults on different devices? And that these defaults can over-ride publishers settings?

If so, how do I get around this one?

I'm stumped! This coding business is not easy

All replies are appreciated!!

Notjohn · 03-06-2015, 08:50 AM

You get around it by using a style sheet such as you can borrow or adapt from my blog at notjohnkdp.blogspot.com

Personally, I would stay away from Calibre. I'm told it's great for people who know a lot of html and CSS, but it can bite people who don't. I would open that html file in Sigil and build an epub from it (epubs convert just fine on the KDP). There's a Sigil forum here on MobileRead.

dickloraine · 03-06-2015, 09:11 AM

First make an epub and then use that with kindlegen instead of a html.
If I may say so, you seem to be overly obsessed of how your book looks exactly. You will never achieve perfection in a reflowing format. Just change the font-size and everything changes. If you want that type of control, you need to make a fixed format book. But: That is much more complicated. And you will alienate most of your possible readers, by taking away their ability to customize the look of the book. People reading eBooks know and live with the limitations. People who can't stand this read paper books. Maybe sometime in the future we will have better renders.

indieauthor83 · 03-06-2015, 09:23 AM

It's taken me over a year to write Dickloraine, I just want to do it justice that's all. I appreciate the text flow will never be perfect, but when headers are rendering huge in comparison to the text, or to the left of the page (leaving everything looking skewif), I'd say I have good reason to be concerned.

You're right though, I've been looking through endless kindle books lately and there seems to be two popular formats, neither are perfect, but it's the best result there seems to be. One, the reader can change the line spacing etc, and the line spacing is already pretty generous. And the second, the lines are closer together (1.2em?) and the reader can't change the line-spacing, because it's fixed.

The latter is AZW3. I'm wondering which to opt for, or whether just to stick to mobi, and forget KF8. What are people's thoughts on this?

I appreciate the link, thanks NotJohn, I'll have a look later, I have a little boy who's needing some attention from his mummy! I'll check back on here a little later.

Thanks for the feedback, much appreciated.

Zoe.

dickloraine · 03-06-2015, 06:50 PM

I can understand your concerns. And the header things sounds like a problem. I meant the white space in justified text is not solvable. As to the format: I am not a kindle expert, but as far as I know, old readers use mobi, moder kf8. And amazon takes care of sending the right file to the user. If you use kindlegen to convert your epub, the file (with a mobi extension) includes both versions.

dickloraine · 03-06-2015, 07:07 PM

As an after thought: You could try out how your epub looks in comparison. Either in an app like mantano reader on android (which respects css) or adobe digital edition on your pc. That way you could at least see, if something in your css is not right or if it is something specific to the kindle (with the caveat, that all epub viewers have some quirks too).

03-03-2015, 03:45 PM	#1
indieauthor83 Enthusiast Posts: 30 Karma: 10 Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: UK Device: kindle fire hd	Mobi or KF8? There's more css options for the KF8, but from what I've read, these don't work on the earlier Kindle models. So what I'm wondering, is if I create a KF8 file, does this mean it won't work on the early Kindles, or will they just format differently, leaving the advanced CSS out? All replies are much appreciated! Thanks in advance Zoe

03-06-2015, 06:40 AM	#9
Notjohn mostly an observer Posts: 1,515 Karma: 987654 Join Date: Dec 2012 Device: Kindle	Anyone who reads e-books is accustomed to the occasional short line or lines with extra white space. I don't mind them at all, and certainly not as much as I mind reading a book that's formatted ragged right. As for the mobi vs azw3 question, that's not an issue. Your book when converted will contain both versions, and Amazon will deliver the appropriate one to each customer. Nobody will be reading the Mobi 7 version on a KF8 gadget, or vice versa. Last edited by Notjohn; 03-06-2015 at 06:42 AM.

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03-03-2015, 03:51 PM	#2
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,544 Karma: 93383043 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	Firstly, the old Mobi7 format supports no CSS at all. Zero. Kindles prior to the K3, and also the iPad Kindle app, don't support KF8. A KF8 file simply won't work at all on these devices. If you're planning on selling a book through Amazon, you can generate a "dual" Mobi file which contains both Mobi7 and KF8 versions of the book, and Amazon's servers will automatically deliver the correct format to each device or app.

03-03-2015, 04:01 PM	#3
indieauthor83 Enthusiast Posts: 30 Karma: 10 Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: UK Device: kindle fire hd	Hi Harry, Thanks for your reply! Can I ask, the 'dual mobi format' you've mentioned, how would I go about attaining this? Can this be done via conversion software, or would it need to be manually coded? If so, how would I go about doing it (would I use queries? And what would the code be that I would need to insert at the beginning of the html file, to reference that it's a 'dual file'? Thanks Zoe

03-03-2015, 06:42 PM	#4
eschwartz Ex-Helpdesk Junkie Posts: 19,421 Karma: 85397180 Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: The Beaten Path, USA, Roundworld, This Side of Infinity Device: Kindle Touch fw5.3.7 (Wifi only)	Simply use kindlegen, as all KDP authors are supposed to. It will output a .mobi file containing the book formatted as both MOBI and AZW3. If you like you can use media queries to style the book differently depending on format, e.g. use embedded fonts for dropcaps in KF8 and some sort of fallback for MOBI.

03-04-2015, 02:46 AM	#6
indieauthor83 Enthusiast Posts: 30 Karma: 10 Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: UK Device: kindle fire hd	Thanks for everyone's advice. I thought I'd double check to see if there are any miracles out there, that have just popped-up for word-spacing. Also I'd read about KF8 formats/vs mobi, so wondered if it's possible to have both. I've followed a professional formatters advice and it looks really nice now! Thanks for the advice it's appreciated. Zoe

03-06-2015, 01:03 AM	#7
dgatwood Curmudgeon Posts: 629 Karma: 1623086 Join Date: Jan 2012 Device: iPad, iPhone, Nook Simple Touch	Basically, you create the source HTML or EPUB the usual way, but with a bunch of weird rules about which CSS selector combinations are supported (a bunch of stuff just doesn't work). Then you run kindlegen, test it with Kindle Previewer, swear at how wrong the output is, rinse, and repeat.

03-06-2015, 04:23 AM	#8
indieauthor83 Enthusiast Posts: 30 Karma: 10 Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: UK Device: kindle fire hd	Thanks dgatwood, I tried that last night. I opened an AZW3 version of my book and a mobi version, on the Kindle Fire 7HD. There's a big difference... the headers look HUGE on the fire HD, when in AZW3, but the mobi version looks fine/nice. The words look closer together on the AZW3, which gives it more of a book feel... BUT, there are lines throughout my whole book, in that every so often are stretched, so there is white spacing. It's distracting, and breaks the flow. Although I'm told there's nothing I can do about it Other than hyphens, but I can't seem to get hyphens to turn on!! I've set them to 'auto' in the css, but nothing. Yet the headers hyphenate (against my instructions), so my Kindle obviously supports hyphenation. This coding is so complex! I think I'll post another thread on this, and see if anyone can help me to figure out how to turn hyphens on, and to decide whether to go with the AZW3 file or the mobi one. I can't decide!

03-06-2015, 08:21 AM	#10
indieauthor83 Enthusiast Posts: 30 Karma: 10 Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: UK Device: kindle fire hd	Thanks NotJohn, Well I've managed to make a html file, that when converted into mobi and AZW3 through Calibre, looks nice. The AZW3 looks the best by far! But... then I've gone and uploaded my HTML file into Kindle Gen, instead of Calibre, and the headers aren't rendering properly (actually, in the AZW3 file that Calibre converted, I had a similar problem, the heading sizes were HUGE compared to the mobi version - this I tested on my actual Kindle Fire 7HD). With the KindleGen program, the previewer is showing me the headers appearing left aligned (even thought my css settings specify them to be centered). I'm guessing that headers have defaults on different devices? And that these defaults can over-ride publishers settings? If so, how do I get around this one? I'm stumped! This coding business is not easy All replies are appreciated!!

03-06-2015, 08:50 AM	#11
Notjohn mostly an observer Posts: 1,515 Karma: 987654 Join Date: Dec 2012 Device: Kindle	You get around it by using a style sheet such as you can borrow or adapt from my blog at notjohnkdp.blogspot.com Personally, I would stay away from Calibre. I'm told it's great for people who know a lot of html and CSS, but it can bite people who don't. I would open that html file in Sigil and build an epub from it (epubs convert just fine on the KDP). There's a Sigil forum here on MobileRead.

03-06-2015, 09:11 AM	#12
dickloraine Guru Posts: 631 Karma: 7544080 Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Berlin Device: PRS 350, Kobo Aura	First make an epub and then use that with kindlegen instead of a html. If I may say so, you seem to be overly obsessed of how your book looks exactly. You will never achieve perfection in a reflowing format. Just change the font-size and everything changes. If you want that type of control, you need to make a fixed format book. But: That is much more complicated. And you will alienate most of your possible readers, by taking away their ability to customize the look of the book. People reading eBooks know and live with the limitations. People who can't stand this read paper books. Maybe sometime in the future we will have better renders.

03-06-2015, 09:23 AM	#13
indieauthor83 Enthusiast Posts: 30 Karma: 10 Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: UK Device: kindle fire hd	It's taken me over a year to write Dickloraine, I just want to do it justice that's all. I appreciate the text flow will never be perfect, but when headers are rendering huge in comparison to the text, or to the left of the page (leaving everything looking skewif), I'd say I have good reason to be concerned. You're right though, I've been looking through endless kindle books lately and there seems to be two popular formats, neither are perfect, but it's the best result there seems to be. One, the reader can change the line spacing etc, and the line spacing is already pretty generous. And the second, the lines are closer together (1.2em?) and the reader can't change the line-spacing, because it's fixed. The latter is AZW3. I'm wondering which to opt for, or whether just to stick to mobi, and forget KF8. What are people's thoughts on this? I appreciate the link, thanks NotJohn, I'll have a look later, I have a little boy who's needing some attention from his mummy! I'll check back on here a little later. Thanks for the feedback, much appreciated. Zoe.

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03-06-2015, 06:50 PM	#14
dickloraine Guru Posts: 631 Karma: 7544080 Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Berlin Device: PRS 350, Kobo Aura	I can understand your concerns. And the header things sounds like a problem. I meant the white space in justified text is not solvable. As to the format: I am not a kindle expert, but as far as I know, old readers use mobi, moder kf8. And amazon takes care of sending the right file to the user. If you use kindlegen to convert your epub, the file (with a mobi extension) includes both versions.

03-06-2015, 07:07 PM	#15
dickloraine Guru Posts: 631 Karma: 7544080 Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Berlin Device: PRS 350, Kobo Aura	As an after thought: You could try out how your epub looks in comparison. Either in an app like mantano reader on android (which respects css) or adobe digital edition on your pc. That way you could at least see, if something in your css is not right or if it is something specific to the kindle (with the caveat, that all epub viewers have some quirks too).