A better workflow

[Ellery]

Hi everyone ! I'm a little ashamed of requesting help on my first post but I'd appreciate some tips on this matter.

I wanted to print this book: https://archive.org/details/damefashionparis00pricuoft, so I started with the PDF version and ran it through ABBYY Finereader since it seemed the fastest way: preserve the layout, correct where needs be and jump to the printing part. But it didn't turn out this easy. Editing the text frames is painful if not impossible at times, with the little side columns literally untamable. And the second issue is that for some reason the font I decided to use doesn't appear in the style editor.

So I thought I'd do all the post processing in InDesign, however all the formats I've tried lose their layout when they are placed and I'm left with manually adjusting and splitting the imported text frames and, since it's a rather long book, it'd take quite some time. My first question is can InDesign pages be setup with paragraph and columns already set up where I can place the text within ?

Or is there a completely different, better approach to the whole thing ? (maybe giving up the side columns )

[DaleDe]

Starting with PDF when you really want a different format is not usually a good idea as you have found out. A PDF can be sent to the printer directly. A PDF is made for exactly that purpose. Now if you want a different format I would start with a different download from that web site. Unfortunately the ePub and other formats are not proof read from this site so you would need to proof read it based on the PDF copy which is likely made from images.

You may want to follow the open library link and find the editable book. Perhaps others have fixed it.

Dale

[Tex2002ans]

Originally Posted by DaleDe

You may want to follow the open library link and find the editable book. Perhaps others have fixed it.

This is what I would recommend first. Definitely see if anyone else has done a lot of the legwork and released their own copy of this. Check Project Gutenberg, and the "E-Book Uploads" section on Mobileread:

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=132

Originally Posted by Ellery

I wanted to print this book: https://archive.org/details/damefashionparis00pricuoft, so I started with the PDF version and ran it through ABBYY Finereader since it seemed the fastest way: preserve the layout, correct where needs be and jump to the printing part. But it didn't turn out this easy. Editing the text frames is painful if not impossible at times, with the little side columns literally untamable.

I wrote about OCRing from PDFs in this topic (and if you follow the links, it leads to a very large pyramid of other posts I have made, covering nearly everything to do with digitizing the PDFs):

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=247539

I want to stress, to let it be known that digitizing and OCRing this stuff is a very labor-intensive process.

My quick advice on this specific book.... I would avoid it for now, until you become more proficient at using the tools. Tackle the EASY stuff first, and try not to jump into the deep end FIRST (don't make the same mistakes I did! ).

Attached: I exported pages 1-5, just to show you sort of how I would tackle it. I attached two files:

• EPUB exported directly from Finereader 12: [Chapter1][Export]
• EPUB that I quickly whipped up: [Chapter1]

Sample of the results:

If I was converting this book, I would most likely split this into two or three distinct passes:

1. Handle those color clothing images completely separately, working from the ZIP of images from Archive.org.
   • You need an image program that can read JPG2000s. There was a topic here discussing people's "image rehab" routine: https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=225518
   • If you don't care about image quality THAT much, you can export the images out of Finereader.
2. Convert the PDF to B/W and focus on JUST the main text (ignore the sidebars)
3. (Optional) Tackle OCRing all of the sidebars, and manually place them back into the text.
   • If you wanted to tackle these while doing #2, do something like manually making all the text in the sidebars bold + italic. This will help it easily stand out from the rest of the text, so you can easily spot + move + place them.
     • Note: I did this while working in Finereader. I just manually made them bolditalic.
   • The sidebars will just get in the way/clog up/be very annoyingly placed by Finereader, and will just cause you headaches at #2.
     • Note: You can see an example of these <div>s + horrible placement in example: [Chapter1][Export].
   • This step also takes a heck of a lot more time than you expect, because you have to read through the actual text, and determine a new proper location for these sidebars. This WILL cause you lots of headaches.
     • Remember, with reflowability, different font sizes, different page sizes, different device sizes, those floating sidebars won't be placed at their exact locations like in the original. See image above.

Originally Posted by Ellery

So I thought I'd do all the post processing in InDesign, however all the formats I've tried lose their layout when they are placed and I'm left with manually adjusting and splitting the imported text frames and, since it's a rather long book, it'd take quite some time. My first question is can InDesign pages be setup with paragraph and columns already set up where I can place the text within?

I personally export out of Finereader as EPUB, this strips nearly all formatting out (besides bold/italics/smallcaps + headings) and do all of my fixing directly in the HTML.

Others have success with exporting as DOCX (Formatted). If you are using the Microsoft Word route, I would highly recommend Toxaris's e-Book Tools:

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=213372

(e-Book Tools has a specially tuned "Preparation", which was designed to help strip out a lot of the Finereader cruft (text boxes, auto-numbered lists, etc. etc.)).

Originally Posted by Ellery

Or is there a completely different, better approach to the whole thing ? (maybe giving up the side columns )

If anything, I would avoid InDesign completely. Just don't even think about it until you are ready to use it as the absolute very last final step.

I would make sure all the text was digitized properly, all the images in their proper proper places, etc. etc. You need to make sure your source document is nearly 100% complete and rid of errors, before even thinking about typography of a new print edition.

Originally Posted by DaleDe

Now if you want a different format I would start with a different download from that web site. Unfortunately the ePub and other formats are not proof read from this site so you would need to proof read it based on the PDF copy which is likely made from images.

Ouch... I personally would NEVER start from the EPUB/Kindle or the "Full Text" versions of the books from Archive.org. They are just fully automated OCR conversions (typically using older versions of the software, for example, this book was run through the Finereader 8 engine instead of the Finereader 12 engine). Typically, newer versions of software = more accurate, thus saving you more time on the editing step.

Side Note: I tackled a similar book with many sidebars (although mine was WAY worse, because the sidebars were actually in the main text area. You think YOUR sidebars are causing headaches? ):



Here is the code I ended up settling down on at the time:

 <p><span class="floatright">Changes in the distribution of assets will affect the rate of interest and the rate of profit.</span> Any change in the relative attractiveness of holding money and holding investments respectively and any change in the supply of money and investments is therefore likely to change the way in which any person will distribute his assets between these two outlets. It is not difficult to see that any tendency toward such a change in the distribution of assets is bound to affect the rate of interest and the rate of profit. And it follows that changes in these rates may occur even when the factors which we have so far treated as their sole determinants, <span class="italics">i.e</span>. the profitability of investment and the willingness to save, remain unchanged, and that the affect of any changes in these latter factors may be modified by a new element, the changes in the demand for the different kinds of assets, to which they may give rise.</p>

<p><span class="floatright">The short-run determination of the rate of interest: assumptions on which considered.</span> In a general manner this effect of “liquidity preference” and the quantity of money on the rate of interest may be described by saying that the rate of interest must be such that people in general will be induced to keep as liquidity reserves just that part of the existing amount of money which is not required to transact current business. It is undoubtedly true that in this sense the quantity of money and liquidity preference will influence the rate of interest. However, this is very far from saying, as Mr. Keynes and his school do, that, even in the short run, the rate of interest is determined solely by the quantity of money and people’s liquidity preferences, and still less that in the long run the rate of interest is primarily determined by these monetary factors.</p>

With this CSS:

span.floatright, span.floatleft {
	font-size: 75%;
	font-weight: bold;
	padding-bottom: 15px;
	padding-top: 15px;
	padding-left: 15px;
	padding-right: 0px;
	width: 25%;
	float: right;
	text-indent: 0;
}

I did this EPUB way back when, and now I would definitely do things slightly differently.

If I had to absolutely keep the sidebars, I would probably touch that CSS up a little (test/make it more robust across devices (this type of sidebar breaks on skinny devices (think cell phone), or when fonts get very large (think poor eyesight)).

(This is how I handle it now) Most modernized books just avoid the sidebars in this situation, and go with inline. This can easily be done with a simple switch of the CSS:

span.floatright, span.floatleft {
	font-weight: bold;
}

This Dame Fashion book has MANY more sidebars though. The books that I have tackled had at max one sidebar per paragraph. This one has multiple per paragraph, and very close together, this would require a lot more thought/condensing on the part of the editor/typographer.

Perhaps converting them into little footnotes? Perhaps coming up with Subchapters covering certain time periods + locations? Perhaps breaking the text into more paragraphs? Perhaps condensing multiple sidebars into one?

Another solution might be to just toss the sidebars out completely. I have also seen that done with many EPUBs.

Also keep in mind, that old school MOBI format (the one on the original Kindle) cannot handle floats. So you will most likely need a still-readable fallback. (Another reason why we eventually settled on the "inline sidebar" solution).

[Ellery]

Thanks both for the insight, and Tex for the very comprehensive post

I started with the PDF version as I noticed the other formats were really dreadful and I had confidence in my ability to master ABBYY quickly.

Now that I have a better vision of the whole project I think I'll head the Word route with Toxaris' tools and see how it works out, preserving the original layout with the side columns.
I do like the idea of inline sidebars too, although at that point you would also have to trim them to avoid fragmenting the main text too much. Or maybe a more elegant and modern solution would be to simply italic or bold the keywords within the body text , since their main purpose seems to aid finding a particular paragraph while skimming through rather than adding information.

I won't follow your advice on the project though Now that I'm involved my curiosity and willingness have gone up and, since I don't have any deadline or standards to meet, I can take it easily and have a relaxed pace.