Literary The White Castle by Orhan Pamuk

[sun surfer]

This is the MR Literary Club selection for August 2014. Whether you've already read it or would like to, feel free to start or join in the conversation at any time! Guests are also always welcome.


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So, what are your thoughts on it?

[caleb72]

Book purchased and ready to read.

[desertblues]

(Book dug up from the basement). Alright, I restarted the book in order to make notes while reading.
The preface of this book puzzles me. This story about finding a forgotten manuscript as a way to authenticate the story, it's historical importance, found in a 'governor’s office (...)at the bottom of a dusty chest stuffed to overflowing with imperial decrees, title deeds, court registers and tax rolls'.(6) Pamuk doesn't need this rather dated cliché, this artificial way to help his story along. This book is fiction, so why would Pamuk use this to give his story credibility? This intrigues me.

[desertblues]

I’m about halfway through and for me this book benefits from a second, more close reading.

At the moment I have the feeling that I’m listening to some inner dialogue, rather than the interaction of two different men. What is the name of the Venetian young man?
I find the part about the interpretation of dreams interesting; remember that this is the age before the psychoanalysis and the great work on dreams of Sigmund Freund 'Die Traumdeutung' (the interpretation of dreams).
Also I am looking into the history of Italy and the Ottoman Empire. Both were a force to be reckoned with in the 17th century, but the Ottoman Empire more so than Italy.

[Bookpossum]

I have just got into the story, and I agree with you about the preface, desertblues. It doesn't seem necessary. But perhaps it is part of the Middle Eastern tradition of stories within stories, as with The Thousand and One Nights.

[Bookworm_Girl]

The book just became available at my library. Looking forward to an interesting discussion!

[desertblues]

I am at page 150 now and I find this a challenging book. I still am rather puzzled about the Venetian young man, who isn't called by name anywhere.
The book looks like a novel set in a specific age, the 17th century, but the city of city of Constantinople was called Istanbul about 1923, when the Republic of Turkey was founded. For me this adds a little to the confusion of the story of these two (?) young men; one from the east and one from the west.

I found some music from the age this novel is set:
17th century Ottoman music


Venetian music of the early Baroque (around the 17th century)


edit: well, in retrospect, perhaps with this music I'm adding to the confusion in the book......

[desertblues]

I have not yet read this book to the end, but I get the feeling that the MR-community managed to choose the most challenging book of the list. ..........(I would have thought you all would go for The Song of Roland or Multatuli).
It is nice to have a 'tough nut to crack' though.

[caleb72]

I'm only a third in and I agree with the "challenging" label. At this point I'm a bit confused as to what the message is in this book. I've come across the following:

1) The Venetian does what he needs to to survive - even exaggerate/lie about what he can do, but he draws the line at abandoning his religious ideals. He did confess that he might have changed his mind with more thought, but otherwise he stood firm.

2) The nature of scientific truth gets quite a beating as we progress with the Turk having some initial ideals that suffer in the face of "fools" and then he seems to abandon those ideals to pander to the whims of the Sultan - with predictions and with bizarre fictions on the animal kingdom.

3) The similarity in appearance between the two has a significance I can't put my finger on. Does it emphasise, perhaps, the struggle of a man of science when confronted by mysticism and superstition? Do we look at the struggle of the Turk and remember that Italians suffered from their own similar problem when Ptolemy's geocentric theories were challenged by Gallileo? Is this the connection? Our Venetian looks on with some superiority as a representative of the "they" - the Western scientific thought of which the Turk wants to gain approval. However, interestingly, Western scientific thought had its own mysticism vs science battle with the scientific revolution.

Hopefully, as I continue to read the story, I will have more to add/discuss.

[Billi]

I've also read about a third of it. I actually liked the preface or at least didn't find anything wrong with it. The author quite boldly tolds the reader that this is not only a book of historical fiction but a political parabel - so maybe we don't only have to look at the history of Italy and the Otoman Empire but at the (then) present of Turkey.

Off-topic and not important for the value of the book (but at the moment the story is very slow going):
What I asked myself is if I would really recognise it when someone else looks exactly like me.

[Bookpossum]

Interesting question Billi, especially back in the days of far fewer mirrors, and then maybe not of the quality that ours are. I wondered that too!

Golly Caleb, those are good points to ponder - thank you.

I haven't got any further, not because I'm not interested, but because I have had a series of days with outings or visitors and my reading time seems to have disappeared. I hope to get back to it this coming week.

[desertblues]

Originally Posted by caleb72

(...)
3) The similarity in appearance between the two has a significance I can't put my finger on. Does it emphasise, perhaps, the struggle of a man of science when confronted by mysticism and superstition? Do we look at the struggle of the Turk and remember that Italians suffered from their own similar problem when Ptolemy's geocentric theories were challenged by Gallileo? Is this the connection? Our Venetian looks on with some superiority as a representative of the "they" - the Western scientific thought of which the Turk wants to gain approval. However, interestingly, Western scientific thought had its own mysticism vs science battle with the scientific revolution.

Hopefully, as I continue to read the story, I will have more to add/discuss.

This could very well be the case. I am still looking into the state of art of the 17th century science of those two countries.

Originally Posted by Billi

I've also read about a third of it. I actually liked the preface or at least didn't find anything wrong with it. The author quite boldly tolds the reader that this is not only a book of historical fiction but a political parabel - so maybe we don't only have to look at the history of Italy and the Otoman Empire but at the (then) present of Turkey.

Off-topic and not important for the value of the book (but at the moment the story is very slow going):
What I asked myself is if I would really recognise it when someone else looks exactly like me.

It is said that every person has its double...... One always has a certain perpection of oneself that need't be the same view as others have.

As I am reading, I get the idea that this isn't as much a novel of historical fiction but a philosophical one. Identity and percertion seem to be important.

[issybird]

"I Am What I Am"

[Bookpossum]

Originally Posted by issybird

"I Am What I Am"

Now I really wasn't expecting that!

[issybird]

Originally Posted by Bookpossum

Now I really wasn't expecting that!

I suspect any American of a certain age who sees "I am what I am" thinks immediately of Popeye. Kind of a mood-killer as far as Pamuk's tale goes!

OK, that done, I wonder if the reference to Cervantes early in the book was only meant at an invocation of the long and complicated history of the Ottoman Empire versus the west, or if Pamuk also was saying, in effect, great things can come from imprisonment under similar yet even worse circumstances?