Pop ups/Panels/Overlays

[p_nut33]

How can I create links within my ebook that will display an overlay/panel/pop-up on kf8? I was able to do this using <div> and css on ePub format but porting it with Kindle Previewer lost me those functions.

I was reading the new specifications for kf8 and it mentions side bars and call outs.

These books have to be reflowable, not fixed.

Can it be done? Thanks

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by p_nut33

How can I create links within my ebook that will display an overlay/panel/pop-up on kf8? I was able to do this using <div> and css on ePub format but porting it with Kindle Previewer lost me those functions.

I was reading the new specifications for kf8 and it mentions side bars and call outs.

These books have to be reflowable, not fixed.

Can it be done? Thanks

You mean javascript pop-ups? As you would use for, say, footnotes in ePUB3?

If that's what you mean, in reflowable format, it can't be done. You can do "RM" (Region Magnification") for text pop-ups in fixed-format books, but if you review the specifications for how that works, you'll see why it doesn't work in reflowable books.

Sidebars and call outs are for floating elements, not pop-up elements. Not the same thing at all. Sorry.

Hitch

[p_nut33]

Originally Posted by Hitch

You mean javascript pop-ups? As you would use for, say, footnotes in ePUB3?

If that's what you mean, in reflowable format, it can't be done. You can do "RM" (Region Magnification") for text pop-ups in fixed-format books, but if you review the specifications for how that works, you'll see why it doesn't work in reflowable books.

Sidebars and call outs are for floating elements, not pop-up elements. Not the same thing at all. Sorry.

Hitch

Its funny cause I made an ePub using calibre with css-javascript overlays and it works from within Calibre and using an ePub3 viewer, but not anywhere else. But anyways, I just want to have a way to display text without having readers wander somewhere else. Can floating elements work then?

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by p_nut33

Its funny cause I made an ePub using calibre with css-javascript overlays and it works from within Calibre and using an ePub3 viewer, but not anywhere else. But anyways, I just want to have a way to display text without having readers wander somewhere else. Can floating elements work then?

Sorry, wasn't the question about KF8? Not ePUB3? If we're talking about ePUBs, then, yes, of course, you can use javascript. If we're talking about KF8--perhaps I misunderstood the question, but as this was the Kindle formats forum, it's what I assumed--no, it cannot be done.

You can float elements left-right, but what is the need for a pop-up? Why not just put the text beneath/near whatever it is you need to discuss? Below it? In a faux-text-box with it, so you can have fallback styling that will work on the millions of K7 devices out there? Can you explain what your need is, a little more clearly, so maybe someone here can assist you? Otherwise, just put the text beneath whatever it is you're trying to get them to look at/read.

Hitch

[p_nut33]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Sorry, wasn't the question about KF8? Not ePUB3? If we're talking about ePUBs, then, yes, of course, you can use javascript. If we're talking about KF8--perhaps I misunderstood the question, but as this was the Kindle formats forum, it's what I assumed--no, it cannot be done.

You can float elements left-right, but what is the need for a pop-up? Why not just put the text beneath/near whatever it is you need to discuss? Below it? In a faux-text-box with it, so you can have fallback styling that will work on the millions of K7 devices out there? Can you explain what your need is, a little more clearly, so maybe someone here can assist you? Otherwise, just put the text beneath whatever it is you're trying to get them to look at/read.

Hitch

Yes, the question is about kfX. Im just saying that its funny that it works in an open standard such as epub but not KFx. These txts that Im working on are legal, so I'd like to display cases and legal statues in an independent area so the reader doesn't have to wander elsewhere.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by p_nut33

Yes, the question is about kfX. Im just saying that its funny that it works in an open standard such as epub but not KFx. These txts that Im working on are legal, so I'd like to display cases and legal statues in an independent area so the reader doesn't have to wander elsewhere.

Well, the easiest way to put case cites and statutes is quite simply in a footnote. I hate to say it, but using pop-ups (and I've done a fair bit of it) sounds really cool, but when there's a lot of text, like a statute, it's not that viable.

Use footnotes, the reader jumps TO the footnote, reads the relevant case law, cites, or statutes, or all three (you can also link other items from within the footnotes) and then jumps back. It's not "wandering." I use footnotes in the books I read all the time and they're GREAT, much better than in print.

And, with regard to it "working" in an open standard such as ePUB, sure, it works--but there's about 2 readers that will display them, both with extremely small marketplaces. So...it's like the infamous boat sailing across the ocean book when ePUB3 was all the "new thing;" nice, but in the real, everyday world, it doesn't have any place to sail TO.

You don't want to try to use floats in a K8 book for material that can be that lengthy--what happens when someone enlarges the font? It'll be a disaster. Just stick with footnotes; someday, when Amazon implements limited js for that type of thing, or enables JSON in reflowables, the footnotes will be able to be changed to pop-ups, but as I said, having suffered through the "Immersedition" book, text-heavy pop-ups are really, really annoying. The new Kindle HDX's are purported to have some print-from capabilities, so that's another very good reason to put them in footnotes--in case your lawyers want to print out the cite.

Hitch

[p_nut33]

Yeah, I was already doing them as footnotes but the overlays looked so good!

[Doitsu]

Originally Posted by p_nut33

Yeah, I was already doing them as footnotes but the overlays looked so good!

BTW, the new Kindle Paperwhite supposedly supports popup footnotes, but nobody knows how to encode them because Amazon hasn't updated their publishing guidelines yet.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Doitsu

BTW, the new Kindle Paperwhite supposedly supports popup footnotes, but nobody knows how to encode them because Amazon hasn't updated their publishing guidelines yet.

Doits, my friend:

What if--just what if--there ARE no new coding guidelines? Do you think it would be difficult for Amazon, which has more processing power and programmatic brains than almost anyone but the Goog, to make the pop-ups simply display whatever's at the end of the link (she said hopefully....).

Ok, no, I don't believe that, either. Well...maybe I do. Mother of G-d, do you think we'd have to create media queries for footnotes just for the PPW? I'll bet not. I'll bet my whimsical note, above, originally intended as tongue-in-cheek, isn't that far off.

Hitch

[tomsem]

My assumption (until proven otherwise) is that this will work with anything that looks like a footnote. Some heuristics in other words.

[Doitsu]

Originally Posted by Hitch

What if--just what if--there ARE no new coding guidelines? Do you think it would be difficult for Amazon, which has more processing power and programmatic brains than almost anyone but the Goog, to make the pop-ups simply display whatever's at the end of the link (she said hopefully....).

Dear Hitch,

Of course, one should never underestimate Amazon, but I don't think that heuristics would be robust enough, because footnotes can be formatted in any number of ways and are technically almost indistinguishable from their evil twins--ordinary hyperlinks.

Since Amazon adopted most of HTML5/CSS3 with the introduction of KF8 and also otherwise supports some ePub3-only elements, the best case scenario would be the adoption of <aside> tags with epub:type="footnote" attributes.

However, since their god-awful fixed layout flavor also technically supports popups, I wouldn't put it past Amazon to expect book designers to use that horrible syntax for regular KF8 books, too. In the end only time will tell.

Let's hope none of your clients will find out about this new feature, because otherwise they'll probably insist on footnotes in their Kindle books being "popup-ified" post-haste.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Doitsu

Dear Hitch,

Of course, one should never underestimate Amazon, but I don't think that heuristics would be robust enough, because footnotes can be formatted in any number of ways and are technically almost indistinguishable from their evil twins--ordinary hyperlinks.

Since Amazon adopted most of HTML5/CSS3 with the introduction of KF8 and also otherwise supports some ePub3-only elements, the best case scenario would be the adoption of <aside> tags with epub:type="footnote" attributes.

However, since their god-awful fixed layout flavor also technically supports popups, I wouldn't put it past Amazon to expect book designers to use that horrible syntax for regular KF8 books, too. In the end only time will tell.

Let's hope none of your clients will find out about this new feature, because otherwise they'll probably insist on footnotes in their Kindle books being "popup-ified" post-haste.

Dear Doitsu:

(I was being affectionate in the truncation. Nickname-y. Shan't happen again).

Lord. You're right, of course. Footnotes are indistinguishable from other links, really--I mean, what's the difference between a link from the inline TOC to a chapter, versus a footnote? Nothing. Durgh.

And the RM pop-ups...please, motherofheaven, let's not have some type of dreaded pop-up...how could we even do that? What, have fallUP styling for pop-up footnotes? So that footnotes are their own class of paragraph...but popups somewhat rely on the fixed-format, given how they are located, you know what I mean? The location factor mayn't be needed, with reflowable, because keeping an image in view isn't necessary for adult books...(thinking aloud here, as you can tell by the Stream-of-Consciousness typing)...for it to work, I think, the easiest path (which shan't be what happens, most surely) would be a media-query type styling; you'd have a span class that wraps the footnote NUMBER or indicator. That's the easiest way. That class has a media query for that class, which says "if you're on a paperwhite, display the linked matter," essentially. Hell, we'd need JSON capability for that, wouldn't we?

Naturally, this won't be what happens. It will be some godawful thing like we have to do for FF mobi's for RM. But then...what will we do for all the other devices?

This makes my head hurt.

Hitch

[Doitsu]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Dear Doitsu:
(I was being affectionate in the truncation. Nickname-y. Shan't happen again).

You can truncate my name anytime, Hitchy baby.

Originally Posted by Hitch

To work, I think, the easiest path (which shan't be what happens, most surely) would be a media-query type styling; you'd have a span class that wraps the footnote NUMBER or indicator. That's the easiest way.

I respectfully disagree. The easiest path would be <aside> tags, and since Kindles and KindleGen simply ignore them (they are treated like divs), no media queries would be required.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Doitsu

You can truncate my name anytime, Hitchy baby.

Who loves ya? Seriously, I've been called so much worse, that doesn't even faze me.

I respectfully disagree. The easiest path would be <aside> tags, and since Kindles and KindleGen simply ignore them (they are treated like divs), no media queries would be required.

hmmmm....And you think that (or have tested that) Liz's solution from 2012 would fallback gracefully w/o issues? I'm going to have to give that a try. I've been not paying close attention to the "pop-up footnotes" thing primarily because of course, for our clientele, it's a non-starter for most of their distribution. (Nook, for example). But if Amazon's adopted it for PPW, we know that it won't be far behind on the others, and I guess I'll have to bite the bullet.

Wasn't there an issue that this wouldn't work (in iBooks) if you had endnotes, and multiple files? You had to have chapter endnotes, because it wouldn't work across files? Do I recall that right? Or has that been fixed in the intervening 17 months, do you know?

Hitch

[p_nut33]

Originally Posted by Doitsu

BTW, the new Kindle Paperwhite supposedly supports popup footnotes, but nobody knows how to encode them because Amazon hasn't updated their publishing guidelines yet.

That's exactly what I want to do!

Wow I cant believe this topic blew up. So whats the tag for that functionality? Still unknown?