Table formatting

Rob Vollman · 06-20-2013, 01:42 AM

First-time user!

I'm having trouble with the formatting of the tables. The rows are too high, leaving a lot of blank space between rows.

Everything else has been nice and easy, converting my document to epub using calibre, and then tuning it in Sigil. But the tables are driving me crazy. I've read the user guides, tried a few things on my own in "code view", but I'm stuck - nothing seems to change the table formatting. At all.

The tables look great prior to the conversion. They look great in HTML. But in ePub they have all that wide space between rows, almost like an extra row in between each row.

Can anyone point me to some documents or threads or discussions that can help me figure out how to get the tables formatting properly?

Toxaris · 06-20-2013, 02:42 AM

You need to style the tables in the stylesheet. That is were all the styling is done. Since you converted it via Calibre, all styles will probably be something like Calibre[digit]. You need to find the style that belongs to the tables.

I recommend learning some HTML/CSS. That will help you a lot.

Also, what is the source?

Jellby · 06-20-2013, 03:05 AM

And try to avoid tables as much as you can, they are a sure source of headaches in ePub. For every table, there's usually at least one other way of presenting the content, which will be more likely to behave as expected.

mrmikel · 06-20-2013, 06:50 AM

There are probably paragraph tags in between the <td></<td> tags. This would give you extra spaces. No formatting tags are necessary for table data unless you want them there.

You need to make sure as you zoom to the largest level that the table stays useable. That is why I often use images so the table doesn't grow overly large. You can control excessive width by controlling the text size. But nothing avails under every circumstance.

Tables don't center easily without the formatting changing in undesired ways, either.

exaltedwombat · 06-20-2013, 09:56 AM

I'm still looking for the best way to lay out dialogue, in the style of a play script. Two columns. Character name on the left, aligned top. Block of speech to the right. Preferably a method that works on epub readers and translates well to Kindle. And now authors want to publish on Smashwords, which rejects tables completely...

Jellby · 06-20-2013, 10:11 AM

Salviati
Wouldn't something like this be enough?

Simplicio
But it doesn't look like printed plays!

Salviati
So what?

exaltedwombat · 06-20-2013, 10:20 AM

Absolutely! But some customers won't be educated into the practicalities of eBook layout. They've just spent hours (or weeks) agonising over the precise detail of a printed layout and can't let go of it!

theducks · 06-20-2013, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by exaltedwombat

Absolutely! But some customers won't be educated into the practicalities of eBook layout. They've just spent hours (or weeks) agonising over the precise detail of a printed layout and can't let go of it!

A while back someone posted 'marginalign.epub' that did this with div's for the actors.

you might search

exaltedwombat · 06-20-2013, 12:16 PM

I can't find it. I remember one suggestion that didn't actually work. If you find it, please let me know.

Rob Vollman · 06-20-2013, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toxaris

You need to style the tables in the stylesheet. That is were all the styling is done. Since you converted it via Calibre, all styles will probably be something like Calibre[digit]. You need to find the style that belongs to the tables.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Yes, according to Code View, the only thing in the table tag is something like class="T-Table2". Likewise in col there is class="TC-Table3A", in TR there is class="TR-Table" and in TD there is "TD-Table1A" and finally in P (each cell is a P) there is class="P-P3".

Then I go to the Styles browser, and look at stylesheet.css

In there I can find all those classes. I try changing some of the values in the classes, but they don't seem to have any effect. I save, re-load, everything, but they don't seem to do anything

Quote:

I recommend learning some HTML/CSS. That will help you a lot.

I've done some googling and have tried making every change imaginable, either to the table itself in Code View, or the stylesheet.css, but nothing seems to do anything. Can you recommend anything specific? Are there any specific commands that are related to the row height?

Quote:

Also, what is the source?

Originally it was an ODT (OpenOffice Writer) but I understand that Calibre converts it to HTML first. I even converted it to HTML myself to see if there was already a row height problem before the conversion to epub but no, the row height is just fine in HTML.

Rob Vollman · 06-20-2013, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmikel

There are probably paragraph tags in between the <td></<td> tags. This would give you extra spaces. No formatting tags are necessary for table data unless you want them there.

That's it! Thank you.

Yes, the cells DID have the P tag. When I removed them, the problem went away.

Even easier, when I went into the stylesheet.css I saw margin-bottom: 1em; and margin-top: 1em; and when I changed them both to 0em, all my tables looked great.

Thank you.

mrmikel · 06-20-2013, 02:05 PM

Glad to hear it. Make sure that when you increase the viewing size they stay ok. Not too hard if you have just a few items. I have worked on government publications with 15 items across...hard to make things stay in line then!

exaltedwombat · 06-20-2013, 03:08 PM

Yeah. The main reason that anything beyond a very simple table doesn't work well in an eBook is that there just isn't enough screen width. If you KNOW your book will only be read on a larger-screen device, why bother with eBook format at all? eBook is about pouring text into different-sized containers. If it's ALWAYS going to be read on e.g. an iPad you might as well take full control of layout and make a PDF.

BobC · 06-21-2013, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Vollman

Originally it was an ODT (OpenOffice Writer) but I understand that Calibre converts it to HTML first. I even converted it to HTML myself to see if there was already a row height problem before the conversion to epub but no, the row height is just fine in HTML.

If you started with ODT you would probably get a cleaner* EPUB by using either the Writer2Epub extension for OOO or the Writer2xhtml add-on from http://writer2latex.sourceforge.net/ .

BobC

* I think the css styles used by these are more descriptive than the generic "calibrexxx" ones you get with Calibre.

exaltedwombat · 06-21-2013, 07:31 AM

When I was making this book with play-script formatting I had trouble getting text (the character name) to top-align in its table cell. Styling via stylesheet worked in everything except Kindle for iPad. DOES anyone read Kindle books on iPad? Is the app broken? Anyway, Kindle Previewer offeres Kindle for iPad and fussy customers check EVERYTHING. It can take less argument to just make it work. It turned out that explicit inline styling worked, the stylesheet didn't (though it did in other respects).

Before getting the job, I was asked to submit a sample page demonstrating that I could deliver the required layout. Suggesting alternatives just hits a brick wall in these cases.

06-20-2013, 01:42 AM	#1
Rob Vollman Junior Member Posts: 5 Karma: 10 Join Date: Jun 2013 Device: None	Table formatting First-time user! I'm having trouble with the formatting of the tables. The rows are too high, leaving a lot of blank space between rows. Everything else has been nice and easy, converting my document to epub using calibre, and then tuning it in Sigil. But the tables are driving me crazy. I've read the user guides, tried a few things on my own in "code view", but I'm stuck - nothing seems to change the table formatting. At all. The tables look great prior to the conversion. They look great in HTML. But in ePub they have all that wide space between rows, almost like an extra row in between each row. Can anyone point me to some documents or threads or discussions that can help me figure out how to get the tables formatting properly?

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06-20-2013, 02:42 AM	#2
Toxaris Wizard Posts: 4,520 Karma: 121692313 Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Heemskerk, NL Device: PRS-T1, Kobo Touch, Kobo Aura	You need to style the tables in the stylesheet. That is were all the styling is done. Since you converted it via Calibre, all styles will probably be something like Calibre[digit]. You need to find the style that belongs to the tables. I recommend learning some HTML/CSS. That will help you a lot. Also, what is the source?

06-20-2013, 03:05 AM	#3
Jellby frumious Bandersnatch Posts: 7,543 Karma: 19001583 Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Spaniard in Sweden Device: Cybook Orizon, Kobo Aura	And try to avoid tables as much as you can, they are a sure source of headaches in ePub. For every table, there's usually at least one other way of presenting the content, which will be more likely to behave as expected.

06-20-2013, 06:50 AM	#4
mrmikel Color me gone Posts: 2,089 Karma: 1445295 Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Central Oregon Coast Device: PRS-300	There are probably paragraph tags in between the <td></<td> tags. This would give you extra spaces. No formatting tags are necessary for table data unless you want them there. You need to make sure as you zoom to the largest level that the table stays useable. That is why I often use images so the table doesn't grow overly large. You can control excessive width by controlling the text size. But nothing avails under every circumstance. Tables don't center easily without the formatting changing in undesired ways, either.

06-20-2013, 09:56 AM	#5
exaltedwombat Guru Posts: 878 Karma: 2457540 Join Date: Nov 2011 Device: none	I'm still looking for the best way to lay out dialogue, in the style of a play script. Two columns. Character name on the left, aligned top. Block of speech to the right. Preferably a method that works on epub readers and translates well to Kindle. And now authors want to publish on Smashwords, which rejects tables completely...

06-20-2013, 10:11 AM	#6
Jellby frumious Bandersnatch Posts: 7,543 Karma: 19001583 Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Spaniard in Sweden Device: Cybook Orizon, Kobo Aura	Salviati Wouldn't something like this be enough? Simplicio But it doesn't look like printed plays! Salviati So what?

06-20-2013, 10:20 AM	#7
exaltedwombat Guru Posts: 878 Karma: 2457540 Join Date: Nov 2011 Device: none	Absolutely! But some customers won't be educated into the practicalities of eBook layout. They've just spent hours (or weeks) agonising over the precise detail of a printed layout and can't let go of it!

06-20-2013, 12:16 PM	#9
exaltedwombat Guru Posts: 878 Karma: 2457540 Join Date: Nov 2011 Device: none	I can't find it. I remember one suggestion that didn't actually work. If you find it, please let me know.

06-20-2013, 02:05 PM	#12
mrmikel Color me gone Posts: 2,089 Karma: 1445295 Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Central Oregon Coast Device: PRS-300	Glad to hear it. Make sure that when you increase the viewing size they stay ok. Not too hard if you have just a few items. I have worked on government publications with 15 items across...hard to make things stay in line then!

06-20-2013, 03:08 PM	#13
exaltedwombat Guru Posts: 878 Karma: 2457540 Join Date: Nov 2011 Device: none	Yeah. The main reason that anything beyond a very simple table doesn't work well in an eBook is that there just isn't enough screen width. If you KNOW your book will only be read on a larger-screen device, why bother with eBook format at all? eBook is about pouring text into different-sized containers. If it's ALWAYS going to be read on e.g. an iPad you might as well take full control of layout and make a PDF.

06-21-2013, 07:31 AM	#15
exaltedwombat Guru Posts: 878 Karma: 2457540 Join Date: Nov 2011 Device: none	When I was making this book with play-script formatting I had trouble getting text (the character name) to top-align in its table cell. Styling via stylesheet worked in everything except Kindle for iPad. DOES anyone read Kindle books on iPad? Is the app broken? Anyway, Kindle Previewer offeres Kindle for iPad and fussy customers check EVERYTHING. It can take less argument to just make it work. It turned out that explicit inline styling worked, the stylesheet didn't (though it did in other respects). Before getting the job, I was asked to submit a sample page demonstrating that I could deliver the required layout. Suggesting alternatives just hits a brick wall in these cases.

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